Women in East Asia wear bikinis, pre marital sex is less of an issue than it is say, in India or the Middle East, Western business practices in law and economics and science and engineering have been either co-opted or copied into the culture of say China, Japan South Korea and Vietnam, is there less resistance to Westernization in that part of the world, if so, why is it accepted there and not in places like the Islamic world? Both have suffered through European colonialism. Is this a correct observation? I’m sure it was never always this way if the observation is correct.
There seems to be a degree of liberalization the further you get away from the Pacific towards the interior of Eurasia, the more conservative and backward looking it is, of course, this is a generalization.
China has a very long tradition of trade and marketing, possibly supported by lots of rivers which help in the transportation of goods. Europe is largely based on trade and markets.
I sez it all comes down to having lots of navigable rivers.
I don’t think to the same degree. Did the middle east develop banking, for instance?
As for south-east asia, even there the Chinese are often the shopkeepers. There is anti-Chinese prejudice in Brunei, similar to anti-Jewish prejudice in Europe. “They have all the money.”
Anyway, relax, and let me have my geographical determinism, which I did clearly offer as a quip.
Seriously, all that happened was that they independently developed big central-state imperial forms of government. Those are always going to resemble one another more than they resemble the small fiefdoms, little kingdoms, and large nomadic groups that are in between.
And, yeah, I’m still halfway serious about geographical determinism.
(Although the Inca Empire is a really interesting “odd man out.” It doesn’t quite follow the same rules as anyone else.)
Indians are the shopkeeper/banker/moneylender class over a lot of Eastern Africa. I think Lebanese historically played a similar role in some other countries.
I’m guessing you’ve read Thomas Sowell’s White Liberals and Black Rednecks too? I was actually pretty surprised at Lebanese immigrants being middlemen in West Africa.
From an African perspective, Lebanese are everywhere.
I’m not particularly convinced by the OP. Plenty of East Asian cultures and Western cultures are outright prudish, especially as you get to rural agricultural areas. I think you are mostly seeing different levels of development and urbanization, along with a hefty dose of seeing the surface and not necessarily the details of what people are really doing.
This is an illusion on multiple fronts. Firstly, because a lot of the westernization of Asia is greatly overstated, and “asia” is not monolithic. Japan, AIUI, has a pretty westernized sexual mores (or perhaps even more liberal), but I lived in both Korea and Taiwan, and they are both significantly more conservative. India is sexually and culturally traditional, but the economy is westernizing rapidly. In Thailand, Thai women who are not actually prostitutes do not generally wear bikinis. (Siam Sam can correct me if I am wrong here.)
Secondly, much of the middle east was more westernized, not less, a generation ago. Beirut in the 50s and 60s was a glamorous cosmopolitan city. Go look at films or photosof that era and you won’t see a burka in sight. Much of what gets sold as “traditional” Islam is in fact a conscious and recent return to things that had been abandoned.
Yep, consider me unconvinced as well, for all the reasons you two have cited. I’m inclined to think this supposed greater cultural similarity is more confirmation bias than anything else.
There have been significant periods of time when the West didn’t interact especially well with East Asia. Japan was virtually closed to foreigners between the 1630s and 1853, and around 1900 China saw a violent uprising against imperial and missionary influence (the Boxer Rebellion). The US banned Chinese immigration (with narrow exceptions) starting in 1882; Canada passed a similar law in 1923. Japan’s victory over Russia in the 1904-05 Russo-Japanese War was considered a stunning upset in the West and a challenge to imperial ambitions (part of the assumption being, of course, the shock that an Asian country could defeat a European one).
With that being said, there are a couple of factors that have brought the West and East Asia into greater cultural alignment with each other than with, say, the most conservative parts of the Middle East. One is the westernization of East Asia, a process that’s been happening to varying degrees since perhaps the mid-19th century but has increased in the last 70 years.
Another factor is the decline of religiosity in the West. The religious traditions that have predominated in East Asia are distinct from Christianity and Islam in that they do not seek to convert the entire world to a religion revealed by a personal god. In East Asian religions, the line between belief and non-belief can be fluid, and as such, it’s difficult to make exact comparisons between the number of “religious” people in the West and East Asia. It seems fair to say, however, that atheism and humanism are more widely accepted in China and Japan than they are in much of the Middle East.
At the same time, it has to be remembered that large numbers of people (at least in absolute terms) in East Asian countries have converted to Christianity as a result of a century and half of missionary activities, with said converts being disproportionately those who are cultural/political/economic elites (more towards middle-class professional/white-collar or politician types then the obscure philosophers, musicians, and college students who convert to Oriental religions in the West). In comparison, there has been relatively little Muslim to Christian conversion in the Middle East, with existing Christian populations being ones that were ancestrally so and practicing Eastern forms of it rather than Western Protestantism.
Yeah, but in the Middle East the trend is reversing, whereas in East Asia, it is becoming more Western orientated. That’s not to say it’s a one way cultural exchange, I do believe that because of their adaption of some Western cultural norms, that we have been able to incorporate some of their culture more positively and it be seen in a more positive light eg Buddhism, anime, far eastern cinema/tv shows, which shows as a convergence.
If I’m wrong then that’s ok, it could be very well confirmation bias on my part, I’ve been to China, and never felt really awkward about being a Westerner, I felt that the Chinese were just like me, but did a few things differently.
I am correcting you, because this is wrong. While it may not be as common as it is in the West and it’s not uncommon still to see the bizarre practice of ladies going into the ocean in their regular clothes, I’ve been to the beach here enough times to know that regular swimwear including bikinis is nevertheless pretty common.
