I wasn’t talking about legislation, so I don’t know why you brought that issue up.
I said Christmas is a Christian holiday. I didn’t say we should try to legislatively wipe it out of existence.
However, since you have brought it up:
In addition to what Babale just said; are you claiming that discussing whether a majority opinion is accurate or not as to the facts is not worth doing, just because however correct the minority is they may be outvoted?
Plus which, the opinion that Christmas is secular seems to be the opinion in the minority – again, going by your own cite.
Some people do. What’s that got to do with it?
I’m not saying it’s a Christian holiday because the word “Christ” is in the name. I’m saying it’s a Christian holiday because it’s absolutely chock full of specifically Christian imagery (and yes I know these days it’s also full of secular imagery, the presence of that doesn’t make the other disappear), and because a significant percentage of the USA population considers it to be about the birth of Jesus who they think is God.
XMas is actually a Christian abbreviation (or at least began as a Christian abbreviation around 1000 AD). X being the Greek letter chi, the first letter in Christos.
Technically if that was what an overwhelming majority wanted, yes
Democracy is no guarantee that if enough people wanted something even as heinous at that, that any minority position would even be considered, much less enacted
Whether or not a specific celebrant feels that they’re doing something religious or not has zero bearing on whether or not the holiday, as celebrated in aggregate, is itself religious.
If I celebrate Christmas as the secular holiday that I celebrate it as, then it is indeed a non-religious holiday to me. If someone wants to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, then it will be religious to them. Same thing with the pledge of allegiance.
Maybe I can freely see the two differences because I take an agnostic approach to defining the supernatural, and am not a strong athiest or christian
The vast majority of the ways in which Christmas is celebrated in this country is as a secular holiday. And remember that because Christmas itself is unmentioned in the Bible, the early Puritans refused to celebrate it in any way whatsoever.
We’ve gone over this lots of times on the Dope, but as Jew I see all of those things as Christian. Many folks do not. I don’t see any way to bridge that divide. Whether they are religious or not is a slightly different point, but in my mind they are all Christian. Being religious or secular is immaterial.
Gefilte fish is Jewish and secular. Christmas trees are Christian and secular.
How about a cite that, as claimed in the post I originally responded to, 90% of the population perceives it as entirely a secular holiday?
And as far as your list: the angels and stars-of-Bethlehem on the trees, many of the carols, many of the stories, all of the creches, the churches and the crosses on the Christmas cards, the celebrations in the churches, all the references to the “Christ child” and the “virgin mother” and “holy” this and that, in my area among others the town-sponsored celebrations including such carols and references – I could go on. The accretion of a batch of non-religious stuff around the core doesn’t mean that the core isn’t there.
I wonder if this is the result, at least here and some other corners of the internet, claiming that all the Christian traditions were stolen from pagans (the tree for instance). So there is a thought that Christmas is just a secular holiday. Now, granted a lot of people treat it as a secular holiday - or at least we have to put up with some religious trappings to get to the secular stuff they like (ie, presents).
Or at least some folks want to accelerte the secularization of Christmas, so that it becomes as Christian as Halloween is currently (not much at alll, even though that’s where it came from).
As a Neo-Pagan I see the tree and Santa Claus as from Norse Pagansim, and the mistletoe is also from pre-Christian Paganism, but the gift-giving, carols, stories, and some other things are Christian.
Either way - Pagan or Christian - all that stuff has roots in religion, even if quite a bit of it is now seen as secular. You can’t tell by looking at the trapping if the household with the decorations is doing it as a Christian or a secular holiday
You can usually spot the Hanukah houses - but the big deal about Hanukah is NOT a Jewish thing - historically it’s a minor holiday - but an American Jewish thing often promoted by Christians wanting to show how unprejudiced they are by re-branding Christmas traditions with a different color scheme and symbol without necessarily asking the Jews if that’s what they want.
I sure as hell don’t - as someone who has always been outside Christianity I find it more and more oppressive as I grow older. It’s not MY holiday! Sure, I like the lights and enjoy the music but it’s not my religion and I feel the larger society in which I live COMPELS me to celebrate it whether I want to or not. Would you want to be compelled to fast during Ramadan even if you’re not Muslim? What if you lived in a nation where all the restaurants closed during Ramadan so you had not choice about it? What if every time you took a drink in public during Ramadan you got the stink eye (or worse) and every day of the holiday you had to explain no, you’re not Muslim and the rules don’t apply to you?
That’s sort of how I feel during Christmas. I have a coworker who can NOT understand why I do not want to buy either the Madonna-and-Child postage stamps or the Santa Claus stamps we sell that time of year and want just plain old flag stamps. Every year I have people inviting me to church services even though for six years I have made no secret that I am not Christian. Every year I have been in the work world I have dealt with people wanting me to participate in gift-giving schemes and “Secret Santa” stuff that I have zero interest in and are not part of my faith, and indeed at times my participation has been MANDATORY. Every year I deal with people who DEMAND I say “Merry Christmas” but do they ever wish me a new year on Rosh Hashanah? Do they even know what Rosh Hashanah is? No, and no.
Christians are like fish and water - they are so immersed in this Christian-based culture they no longer see the religious influence.
Mind, I have zero problem with wishing Christian Merry Christmas - if I KNOW someone is Christian and/or celebrates that holiday I will do so. I also wish Muslims a Blessed Fast. I am happy to acknowledge the faith (or lack thereof) of anyone else, the problem is that so many Christians in this country want me to be myself quietly, over there, where I won’t bother them while demand that I submit to their traditions.
It’s not a “claim”, it’s the truth. Holly and mistletoe are not features of the Mid-East. The Christmas tree comes from pre-Christian Germanic traditions. It is no more original to Christianity than the depictions of Jesus as light-haired and blue-eyed.
But go right ahead and keep denying that anything existed prior to Christianity invading Europe.
No, it’s pretty clear Halloween also came from pre-Christian traditions as well. The Christian holiday is All Saints Day, not Halloween. Halloween in the Anglo-sphere looks a lot more like Pagan Samhain/other pre-Christian Celtic traditions.
But go right ahead and keep denying that anything existed prior to Christianity invading Europe.
I’ll also point out that the Dia de Muertos in Mexico, although also celebrated on top of All Saints, owes a LOT to Aztec and other pre-Columbus traditions. This is now spreading across both North and South America.
But go right ahead and keep denying that anything existed prior to Christianity invading the Americas.
Really, the insistence that non-Christian religions and traditions had zero effect on these holidays is yet another way in which Christianity denies the existence of any religion outside of itself. When you say a holiday like Christmas or Halloween is either Christian or it’s secular without even a nod to influences or origins… it’s pretty alienating. Not cool, dude, not cool.
Possibly, but I think we have different interpretations. Being secularly Christian is still Christian. It may not be overtly religious but it’s still not part of my experience because I was raised Jewish.
So, I just want to note, as per my previous post, that posts like @broomstick are reasons that a lot of people may consider Christmas ‘secular’ here and other places in the internet (regardless of what the polls may say). It probably wasn’t his intent, but served my purposes pretty well.
Which, of course, is something no one said. However, denying it’s repurpose for Christianity makes people think the tree itself is simply secular and not tied to the Christian religious observance.
(though I will note the modern Christmas tree and decorating it, etc, etc, is something that came into vogue in the 16th and 17th Century… well after Germany had been converted)