I have attended religious instruction and study with Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists and Unitarians. My personal conclusion is that God is beyond human understanding and that, if and what ever God may be, it acts without my intervention and probably does not travel 18 billion light years to seek me out from among 6 billion others for assistance in completing some great plan.
However, the OP presents a line that needs to be drawn. Religions are God clubs for believers. A diverse society must accommodate them, which comes at some cost to the society. And the Religion clubs must accommodate the society, which will come at some cost to them. So, where is the line drawn?
To what degree can absolutists be accommodated in a diverse society? In example - The Bible is the most complete ancient document that is commonly available to us, It is an artifact of history, just like the Rosetta Stone. The Bible should be discussed in school in exactly the same manner as the Rosetta Stone. But to do so would offend religious sensitivities and recent Religious Liberty laws might make it impossible for a school department to defend itself. So, where’s the line?
There are tens of millions of Americans that believe in some form of prosperity gospel. They believe that devotion and prostration to God directly improves financial success. And religious people in general are beholden to a just world fallacy, even to the point of assuming that if a wealthy-but-evil, or poor-but-pious person dies before their situation is remedied, it will be sorted out in the afterlife.
Is that so different than lighting a candle for financial success?
They may not be allowed to by certain laws, however in other instances (like working at a church), they may have requirements that have and were specifically called out as job requirements.
So spinning it up from thin air, no (after hiring you) . But if the job requirements are mandatory, then yes they probably can.
Nitpick, swearing on the bible in court is rare. I think I’ve only seen it in a couple of southern states. Even the “so help you god” part of the oath is omitted many places, and optional everywhere else.
Rituals provide comfort for the individual, They are beneficial to the society to the extent that they are personal and do not effect others. ie candles are OK but publicly burning crosses is a no-no.
As with most things in life, and especially in conversation, INTENT matters. In your example, you are saying something that provides nothing, they are offering you something that they might find comfort in.
If you think it’s somehow unjust and oppressive that there are social consequences attached to being rude to people, well, I don’t know what to tell you.
Of course there are consequences. You can’t be a rude jerk at your job without suffering consequences, up to and including losing that job. Well, I don’t know what you do for a living. Maybe you can be a rude jerk at work. But most people can’t. You can’t walk into, say, your neighborhood hardware store and be obnoxious to the owner without being invited to leave and never come back. You may even have relatives who feel that they can live without your company forever, if you’re rude enough to them.
Tens of millions? I’d be surprised. The largest Christian denomination in the world, the Catholic Church, pretty much considers the prosperity gospel to be anathema. As to the mainline Protestant denominations – Methodists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians.
There may be a tiny drop of that nonsense left in those denominations with Calvinist roots, but these days it’s at a homeopathic level.
I’m not saying the “prosperity gospel” isn’t something that’s out there, but it’s possible to overestimate its size and influence.
Why among all human superstitions does “religion” get its own protected cubby hole?
Believe Aliens built the Pyramids? Ok your a little nutty, I’m probably gonna stop talking to you now.
Believe a Jewish carpenter 2000 years ago walked on water? OK well i can respect your beliefs even if i don’t share them.
Your crazy Aunt is always going on about Astrology and the healing power of crystals.
But if I eat this wafer that the witch doctor, sorry Priest, transformed it into the body Christ, I will achieve immortality in heaven…perfectly reasonable.
Religion is all well and good if it gives some people a moral framework, sense of community etc. At the core of most religions is some version of “be nice to other people, don’t steal, or otherwise be a jerk” Which is great.
I won’t even get into how people in power have abused religion for war and other horrible things.
but your crazy Aunt and her crystals aren’t much different from the most learned Priest, Rabbi, or Imam.
Yep. Crazy world, no? Humans, even atheists, tend to be irrational and imperfect beings. We believe all sorts of things all the time, with very little (or even contradictory) evidence.
You have to “put up” with religious people because there will always be people who believe in the tooth fairy, or that product A is better than product B because marketing convinced them so.
Embracing this obvious truth about human nature makes a lot of what goes on in the world feel more normal. Of course people are doing stupid things for stupid reasons; most people believe in some version of a magical sky fairy; why would I expect humanity to embrace any fact-based, rational approach to civilization when everyone believes their dead relatives are living the good life somewhere “up there”?
And, to be clear, atheists are just as prone to this same kind of irrational belief . . . it’s just that we managed to avoid this one specific example of it.
If that’s what you want to say, in those words, then there are plenty of Religious People who would say “Duh!” and others who would say “Is that what you really think we believe? Or are you just strawmanning?”
There is a link in there with something like a quarter of all Americans believe:
1 in 4 Americans said they believe God will always reward true faith with material blessings. Americans who hold evangelical beliefs were most likely to agree with that statement.
I know plenty of Catholics that believe the same thing. And as I said, even the very concept of Heaven/Hell says that devotion/lack of is rewarded.
It took me a while to figure you out. Simply put, you are to Atheism what Evangelical Christians are to Christianity, only on the opposite end of the spectrum. You feel totally confident in the superiority of your opinion to the point that you feel it gives you carte blanche to run rough shod all over any Christian that you find.
I find that just as repugnant as I find the attitude of Evangelical Christians who trumpet their beliefs to all the unwilling who are obviously going to hell.
Which I think is the point of this thread. The atheist is expected to refrain from their comment, the theist gets to say whatever they want, even if they know the atheist doesn’t believe it. They get to say something that provides comfort for them, but is an affront to what the atheist believes.
I’ve hoped, probably unrealistically at times, that something might happen. I never thought asking a supernatural being that would intervene on my behalf would help
I would say that most religious don’t either. They don’t pray for specifics, but generalities.
I still go back to the story of the guy in the flood who prayed to god to save him. A car shows up before the streets are flooded, and offers to take him to safety. He declines and says god will protect him. Then the waters rise, and now a boat comes by, begging him to come with them, and he once again puts his faith in god, rather than man. Finally, as his house is about to collapse, and he is on the roof, a chopper comes and drops a man down on a cable to rescue him, but he adamantly waves them off, preferring to wait for divine salvation.
When he drowns and dies, he comes before god, and asks why god didn’t save him. God replies, “I sent you a car, a boat, even a helicopter! What else could you ask for?”