Why do we not have resources for people like Robin Williams?

By which I don’t mean ways to make him “better”, but why are we so against assisted suicide? Christianity? Religion?

Robin should have been allowed to choose suicide. He was 63! He didn’t have young dependents, which is the only time I have a really difficult time with suicide. He had lived his life. Had a successful career. People who loved him.

Why can’t we have a suicide ceremony, wherein someone demonstrably in their right mind can say goodbye to the people they love, set their affairs in order, and put on a mask or take a pill and go to sleep and end the pain?

Will we ever have this? This has been in my mind a lot over the past few years, what with Terry Pratchett also considering it. Hell, I’d like the option, when the time comes.

Wiliams should not have had to hang himself with a belt, alone and miserable. Maybe he still wouild have, i dont know but the option should have been there. Why are we so against it?

I think it has got to be based on religion. Seems like every religion has commandments against suicide. In Hindi the word for suicide is either atmahatya, which means " soul-killing", or khud-khushi, which means “self-pleasing”. Not exactly great. And I am pretty sure in Catholicism it is a mortal sin.

Two years ago my friend committed suicide in the UK. He wanted to…he was 76 and also felt he had done everything he wanted to. There should be a way for people like him - like me - to go painlessly when we choose.

Help me out here cause I’m just not getting it.

Do people who are demonstrably in their right minds want to kill themselves, absent a painful and humiliating terminal disease?

The tragedy is not that he had to kill himself with a belt, it’s the fact that he felt he had to kill himself. The same goes for all the other people with mental illness who are ignored in society, including the ones you haven’t heard of.

I don’t understand why he can’t make that choice for himself. I really don’t get why we think we have the right to make the choice for him.

I’m not advocating give up on mental health treatment and let people run to the suicide centers. But it seems cruel that we don’t even give humans the mercy we give dogs -to not live on in pain and suffering to satisfy our needs.

He did make that choice for himself - he’s just as dead as he would be if we had given his suicide the Official Stamp of Approval.

Regards,
Shodan

Suicidal ideation is an acute symptom of mental illness. When not wracked by depression and anxiety, there’s no reason to believe that Robin was suicidal.

If I were in a car accident, and my legs were crushed, I would be in unbearable agony. I could totally see myself begging for death. Is it reasonable to let me go ahead and kill myself?

In my personal and professional experience, I think that’s a pretty sound analogy. When their brains stop screaming, most people are glad they didn’t end it. But in the moment, in the throes of agony, it seems like the right choice. Or the only one.
I guess the question comes down to what it means to be in one’s “right mind.” Was Robin? I don’t think so.

If you want to advocate for assisted suicide options for terminally ill, non-depressed people, then I’ll agree with you, in principle. But the only good we’d achieve by making it easier for depressed people to kill themselves in their lowest moments is a significant reduction in depression in our society.

I’m in favor of euthanasia for the terminally ill, and yes, religion and the basic human instinct toward self-preservation make it really hard for us to deal with this issue. As far as Robin Williams in particular goes - it sounds for all the world like he was clinically depressed, and when you add that issue, this gets very, very complicated because when the disease is in the brain, it’s so hard to say what consent looks like. I’m onboard with helping people who are dying, but I don’t want a lot of depressed people who are hitting a low point to choose suicide when they can live. To that end I’d like to see us put our resources into helping treat illnesses like this because I still think we barely know what we’re doing.

He had one of those, as he’d been diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease.

Also, people who attempt suicide are generally not *chronically *suicidal. Stephen Fry has tried to kill himself several times, most recently in 2012. If you asked him right now if he wanted to kill himself, he’d say no (unless his meds have stopped working again). But if you’d asked him at the right time two years ago, he’d have said “yes.” Which answer do we honor, there?

Fry is bipolar, of course, so those sorts of extreme highs and lows are part of the diagnosis. But highs and lows happen to people who don’t have a pathology, too. If you’d asked Williams the day before if he wanted to kill himself, he might very well have said, “no.” If you could have asked him the day after, he might have said “no” again.

You could put in some sort of waiting period on the process, to see if people change their mind, but my suspicion is that that would just lead back around to people hanging themselves in their bedrooms with their belts - because part of the whole thing with suicide is that you can’t wait any more.

I agree with this. A lot of suicide attempts are from people at a temporary low point in their life. There’s a documentary called The Bridge, about people who jump from the Golden Gate bridge. Some people do survive the jump, and most of those never go on to try to attempt suicide again. I don’t remember if this is from the movie or from reading about it, but at least one person spoke of immediately regretting it after they jumped. Probably some of the people who didn’t survive had the same immediate regret but there was nothing they could do.

Yes,* but that doesn’t appear to be the focus of the OP.

The thread title refers to “people like Robin Williams”. The way in which the people Anaamika is thinking of are like Robin Williams must be inferred from the OP - I think it would be unfair to assume this is about comedians, or short people, just because those people share attributes with Robin Williams. There is no mention of Parkinson’s Disease, or any other illness in the OP. I know this may come across as pedantic, but it’s essential to make the criteria for access to assisted suicide clear in a debate like this. The difference between offering suicide to sufferers of terminal, debilitating illness and the depressed is huge.

*I did specify “terminal”, and Parkinson’s is not a terminal illness. The difference between ending your life early when you know a disease is going to do it anyway, and ending it because of a disability which won’t kill you, may also be great to some people. If people with Parkinson’s should receive access to assisted suicide, why not people with tetraplegia? Again, the distinction might appear to be slight, but the implications are enough to significantly affect the debate.

For many people low grade throes of agony are a daily issue and suicidal ideation is a daily occurrence for years. Robin Williams, I am sure, was not happy and well adjusted then just decided to kill himself. Many people who commit suicide take years of internal dialogue before they decide in favor of it.

How is suicidal ideation necessarily a symptom of mental illness? Suicidal ideation sounds more like a symptom of alienation, abuse, trauma and despair. Granted mental illness can and does contribute, but a lot of people who think about suicide do it for the former reasons. The fact that those life events can cause depression and anxiety doesn’t mean depression and anxiety caused their suicide.

Well, I’m not sure I’d use the terms “low-grade” and “agony” together. But sure, you’re right; Robin was unhappy for decades. He might well have been strugling with constant suicidal though for that time, but I find it unlikely. Suicidal ideation, particularly as a symptom of major depressive disorder, does come in waves.

I didn’t mean to suggest that suicidal ideation is only a symptom of mental illness. But it is undeniably a symptom. It looks to me like Robin struggled with major depression throughout his life; I don’t think it’s unreasonable to draw the connection.

But you’re absolutely right that cause and effect are all over the place in the mental health arena. There’s certainly no way of knowing what Robin’s mental state was at the time of his suicide.

I live in a Right to Die state, and I think we’re on the right track. This is different from assisted suicide in that a physician may make the means available to the individual but does not participate in the actual process in any way. Here in Oregon, you must be certified terminal within 6 months by 2 doctors to qualify to exercise your rights under our laws. There’s an informative film about our laws called How to Die in Oregon, if anyone is interested to learn more about it.

That said, we all have a right to die whenever we may choose. If someone is determined to commit suicide, there is little that can be done to deter them.

In Mr. Williams’ case, I don’t think he was nuts at all. He had been plagued for a lifetime with addiction and depression issues; I believe he needed to work as an outlet for all that excess emotional conflict. With as physical as his comedic style was, I can well understand how, upon learning he was now facing down Parkinson’s Disease, he was eager to avoid the future as it played out before him. He knew how to seek help if he wanted to do that. I think he made a very considered choice.

He would not have qualified for treatment under our Right to Die law because his condition was not terminal. For this reason, I think we need to continue to work on the law to allow people who are determined to be of sound mind to make their own choice in this regard – as they always can, but with perhaps a more gentle method, and less stigma attached.

Because Robert Latimer.

One of the groups fighting against legalizing suicide and euthanasia is advocacy groups for the disabled. You can’t really make it okay for someone to decide to kill themselves without further asking “what about caretakers who are frequently empowered to make life and death decisions for others?”

Latimer is a farmer who euthanized his 13 year old daughter by putting her in the pickup truck and leaving it running in the garage. Tracy had cerebral palsy and everyone agreed that her life was a hellish misery. She couldn’t walk or talk, she was in near-constant agony, and would forever be totally dependent upon others. She had no agency at all. Her caretaker decided, just like Robin Williams did, that death was preferable.

Understandably, this scares the hell out of the disabled. Latimer, by all accounts, cared deeply for Tracy and no one disputes his sincerity in wanted to relieve her pain. Many caretakers for the disabled aren’t so loving. Many might find it financially beneficial to euthanize their charges. Some might do it for reasons of mental illness, or just bad judgement or being overwhelmed with their circumstances.

Ok, so say that caretakers cannot make that decision for their charges. Now we’re back to “why do we know better than them?” Now you’re denying the right to die humanely to the disabled. Imagine Latimer applied to the local health board for permission to euthanize Tracy, and was turned down. It’s not crazy to look at Tracy’s situation and say “here’s a case for relieving suffering with suicide.” There was never any hope for Tracy’s life to get better.

None of these issues settle the matter, but they’re a non-trivial factor in the collective decision to allow and support suicide.

Also, it’s quite common for those suffering life-changing injuries like spinal cord injuries to suffer from severe depression in the initial few months or even years following the injury. I’ve known (and do know) newly-injured quadriplegics and paraplegics who want nothing but to die. I myself dealt with similar feelings after my injury. If there existed legal, easy access to suicide, many newly-injured people would die who otherwise would come to terms with their injuries and once again embrace life.

Apparently, many mental health professionals were discomfited with the Academy’s tweet, “Genie, you’re free” (with a still from “Aladdin”). There was a great deal of concern that it might be a trigger for copycat suicides. A ceremony of the sort contemplated by the OP might raise similar worries.

Why do you not think that the way he went WAS his preference?

There are 100 million ways to choose to die, and, IIRC, about the only ones that need approval are physician assisted.

Euthanasia is legal in the Netherlands for people with unbereable medical conditions, and severe depression is a valid cause. Depressions make life miserable, and not all can be treated. I believe that having been miserable for, say, 20 years, with no prospect of improvement, is a good enough reason to want to die, even if it’s depression.

One of my friends who comitted suicide did so because he was mentally ill (schizophrenia). It’s not his illness that made it commit suicide. It’s the fact that this illness destroyed his life and made it miserable. I perfectly understand what he did, and I don’t think he should have been denied access to assisted suicide.

Some years ago a famous couple commited suicide. They were in good health, but nearing 80. They had a good life, and didn’t want to keep declining. Who’s to say they were wrong?

Another guy I knew comitted suicide in his 50. He never had thought much of life, but was of sound mind. He had a major drawback in his career, and just didn’t feel it was worth it to have a reduced quality of life and to struggle again at his age. So, noticing he wasn’t becoming any younger, he quitted right then. Who’s business it is to say otherwise?

Yes, depression or life traumas can lead to unwarranted suicide ideation. But absent these issues, or if they can’t be solved (after years, you’re still exactly as depressed, or you still feel as bad about being a para/quadraphlegic), why exactly should assisted suicide, or organized suicide reserved to people with severe physical pain? Why should people feel they must prevent me at all costs from comitting suicide if, being healthy and with a sound mind, I still feel my life isn’t worth living for whatever reason?

Some nitpicking, since this is the Straight Dope after all :slight_smile: Both the Hindi words translate to self killing. In the former, the ‘aatm’ prefix is used to refer to self, not to soul. There is no concept of soul killing involved there. Aatmsamman for instance, is self-respect, not soul-respect. And the latter word is not Khud-khushi, but Khud-kushi, again translating to self-killing, not self-happiness.

As to your broader point, I think Indian cultures have some leeway in them on the topic of suicide. My first thought was about the four stages of life that Hinduism sets out - Brahmacharya(student), Grihastha(Householder), Vanaprastha(retired) and Sanyasa(renounced). The system of Sanyasa - the final stage of life where you renounce the world seemed a lot like suicide to me, but on further research it appears that Jainism(the practice known as Santhara) and Hinduism(Prayopavesa) both make explicit allowance for ending your life by fasting when you have no responsibilities left and feel you have reached a stage where you feel your life is complete. That seems like what you’re talking about.

There’s a difference between preventing someone else from committing suicide and having “resources” and “ceremonies” to help them do it. I’ve never said anyone is wrong to commit suicide, but I suspect many people who have killed themselves would call their attempt a mistake today had it been unsuccessful, which is why I’m against the idea of making it too easy to do just because you’re having a bad day.