That statement doesn’t say what you want it to say.
I didn’t turn it. It was NEVER about that. You’re the one trying to turn it. I wrote the fucking OP, and I know what I menat to talk about.
Of course they are separable, especially when framing terms of discussion. Infertility and attempts to TREAT infertility are two different things. I was only talking about the per se condition of being unable to conceive, not about the risks of trying to treat it.
Yes I was, and I said I was. You are reading things into my posts that were never there.
I think the answer to the OP is ‘Just because.’
Either intuitively or through experience, humans seem to understand that the pain of wanting a baby and trying hard to have one and not being able to do so is a a heartbreaking experience much more painful than wanting a mansion or an orgy or whatever other nonsense Dio keeps bringing up.
Since we seem to tick that way as people…since we seem to empathize greatly with that kind of pain, we offer the same sympathies that we offer anyone else facing heartbreak and pain. It isn’t cancer = failure to concieve. Life’s tribulations aren’t contests. We can feel for the cancer patient and for the couple that can’t concieve and neither of those sympathies will detract from the other.
It is our choice to offer that support. If it bothers you, you are just going to have to get over it. Because it seems that most people will indeed sympathize with others if they feel they are heartbroken over not being able to have children. When you have a child and you realize you will run through fire for that child, you tend to develop a soft spot for someone who longs to know that kind of maternal or paternal love. Suck it up on this one. It’s not likely to change.
I appreciate this answer, and I appreciate that what seems like something akin to a simple material desire to me (akin to wanting a good job or a house) is a much more deep-seated, probably biological yearning to others, especially women. I get that. I still think the level of sympathy and reverence I believe society pressures people to feel about that is disproprtionate to what is necessarily warranted, but I’m not going to try to argue with anyone about it anymore.
I will also say once again that I was not questioning sympathy for miscarriages in any way.
I had unexplained infertility. I never had a “miscarriage” but I very likely conceived about 30 times. As best as we can tell, I had an implantation problem.
There isn’t a hard bright line between “failure to conceive” and “miscarriage” - although it does sort of beg the question “if the tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, did it make a sound?” And a lot of people who are infertile have a combination of having a hard time conceiving to start with, a difficult time with implantation, and an inability to carry to term. Although the words are not truly interchangeable, don’t make the faux pas of assuming that someone who says they are infertile hasn’t experienced a miscarriage.
Its probably worth pointing out that the current processes stretch things out and arguably make things far more complicated and increases chances of losing the plot a bit.
Eg if you want to adopt overseas there are age limits for most countries, so you have to decide how long to do IVF vs gamble on adoption, because you cant do them at the same time here. Adoption locally is similar, in that the birth mother gets to choose the adoptive parents, and if you’re over 40 they tend to see you as being as old as their parents rather than prospective parents for their child.
IVF you can keep going until you decide it wont work, and that can really mess the person up, with hormone injections, egg extractions etc - it can turn into a sort of groundhog day nightmare that just goes on and on. And the longer its done the more you ‘lose’ if you give up now, its a kind of chasing your losses experience. Chuck in a few miscarriages where it almost got there and the doctors will all encourage the person to ‘keep trying’. When we said sod it, we were still being encouraged to persevere because the ‘odds were good’.
It all takes place over years and it can start to dominate life in the way it was never expected to, ie your fairly classic ‘frog boiling in water’ jobby. If we could do it over we would have given up IVF far earlier than we did for instance, but thats just not the way you get to decide life.
Otara
Well stated.
Our agency also wanted you to stop infertility treatments before you signed up for the program. IF you got pregnant spontaneously, your adoption would be put on hold, but they didn’t want you running parallel processes - you either committed to making a family through adoption, or you didn’t work with them. I think that this is very ethical and a great thing for the adopted kids- someone did make a definite CHOICE that this was their path, it didn’t become “the thing that worked out first.”
I’m guilty of practically harping on that “age out of adoption” thing. Its something most people don’t realize. A lot of us go into this thinking “I can have kids when I want” and don’t get around to trying until we are in our mid-30s - that’s a normal path for college educated women getting started in a career. Then you try for a year, you try fertility treatments for a year, you give IVF a few rounds, now you are 40 years old and start looking at adoption programs to discover lots of three year plus waits and lots of you need to be 40 at the time of placement. If kids are really important to you, you can’t sit on your hands and wait until your mid-30s to “start.” Because if it doesn’t work out, your doors might all close. Which doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have kids you aren’t ready for.
I know two women whose husband’s lack of readiness created issues. In one case she got pregnant with IVF, but spent $50k per child doing so - after 10 years of her husband not being ready closed all doors (and he’ll retire before his kids graduate high school - this wasn’t a 22 year old guy “not ready”). And in one case where the doors seem to have just closed because he spent a decade not being ready, then they spent five years trying including being in an adoption program that didn’t pan out, and he is now 45.
I know we are hijacking a little bit but about adoption our path was quite a bit different. We decided that we didn’t want to do international or private (birth mother choosing) adoption. The first because it would cost the amount of a college education and the second because waiting to be picked would be just as stressful as waiting for each of my miscarriages. (I am also no a big fan of babies. I just don’t get them. They’re boring.)
So, we decided to adopt kids from the ‘system.’ We decided to adopt a ‘sibling group’ (biological siblings that they want to place together) so we would only have to go through the process once. We’re young (31 and 30 when the final push to adopt happened, we had been trying for three years though and married for 5), smart and financially stable. They don’t see many couples who are all three (or even two if you take out our age) very often.
So, we kind of had the upper hand. There was one placement we lost (it was for twins, the ‘mom’ in the other couple was both adopted and had a twin) but the next time we went for what we believed to be an interview and their first question was, ‘so, when do you want to start visits?’
It’s still a bit of a crapshoot (since they are choosing what they believe to be the best parents for the children not the other way around).
What is really great about this method versus international is that you get all of their information (they are legally required to provide it) to include all doctors visits, biological parent information, what happened to have them removed and you get to talk to the foster parents (who they would be currently living with) about what they are like, etc before you make any decisions. We actually insisted on meeting the kids (since one had some speech delays and I wanted to hear it in action) before we committed (we were introduced as foster mom’s friends coming for a Christmas visit).
The drawbacks? The kids are older (ours were 5 and 6 when they were placed with us), they have been bouncing around the system so they have some emotional baggage and it is easier to adopt if you are willing to accept some problems (some are worse than others but ultimately, you make the decision).
Also, adopting two at once is a lot more work than 2 x one at a time.
Timeframe:
Last miscarriage: February 09
Interview: Late November 09
Visits start: December 10 09
Final placement: January 25 10
Well, in her defence, you also equated the two earlier in the thread:
[Emphasis]
You’re doing a great thing for those kids. I wish more people were willing to take this route rather than to try to custom order a newborn.
I think you need to consider that people sometimes misspeak. Moreover, the inability to take a pregnancy to term is a form of infertility, which is the clear topic of the thread. I don’t consider Otara’s situation materially different from someone who cannot get a fertilized egg to implant (which, obviously, includes people who cannot get an egg to fertilize). Both can be emotionally wrenching.
I do not believe that person was misspeaking, but I am much more charitable about that possibility when the person doing the misspeaking is not making false accusations against me.
No it isn’t. Infertility is the inability to conceive at all. I never addressed the risks of trying to treat it.
The topic is inability to conceive. I know because it was my OP and I’m the one who set the topic.
Consider it equivalent all you want, but that’s not an equivalency I ever made myself.
ETA on second thought, I will go ahead and make that equivalency. Lack of ability to implant is substantively no differnt than lack of ability to fertalize an egg. There’s no pregnancy either way.
Not that I think a loss of a fertilized egg before it implants deserves to be compared to a miscarriage. It might be disappointing, but come on, it’s not a miscarriage. If you think it is, then you think birth control pills cause abortion.
Most people going through infertility treatments are not trying to custom order a baby. Like most potential parents all they want is a healthy newborn. If you’re so in favor of adopting an older child go ahead and adopt yourself. No one’s stopping you. Why didn’t YOU adopt rather than opting to have so many children of your own?
Children who need adoptive parents deserve the same parents any other child does: parents who really want to adopt them, not parents who were forced into adoption because of an untreatable medical condition.
I understand someone who is voluntarily childless not understanding the pain of infertility. If you don’t want children the notion that others might view the inability to have them without medical intervention as a great loss might seem strange. What I fail to understand is why someone with three children of his own feels this way.
Why does it have to be a newborn?
I’ve already fielded these questions. None of our kids were planned, When we had our first child, we would not have qualified for adoption anyway, being broke. I actually have brought up the idea of fostering or perhaps adopting older kids (I’ve worked with kids who bounce around without families and it breaks my fucking heart), but my wife has shot me down. We are pretty much at capacity already. If we had more money and more space, I would be much more aggressive about trying to do it.
FTR, adopting an older child is not for everyone and you need to be committed to doing it. Not everyone is cut out for it. Don’t try this unless you are committed to it. It’s not fair to the kids or yourself. It is much easier to bond with younger children. I can understand the appeal of getting a newborn.
Also, it’s not like it was altruistic on our parts. If we hadn’t adopted these kids, someone else would have (it would have been a longer search but it would have happened). We did this for us.
So your reasons for not adopting are valid but people going through infertility treatment is not allowed the same privilege? You have three children you willfully and voluntarily conceived. You have no business standing in judgement on others who want the same thing. Adopting an older child or a special needs child should be done because the person deliberately wants to do so. It should not the only alternative to available to the infertile. That’s not fair to the children in need of supportive parents or the adults who may not be up to meeting those needs.
If you have three children of your own why is it so hard to understand that other people might want babies and children as well? You love your children. I love my daughter. Why would you not understand the deep desire that many people have to want them in your life? And the pain when you realize it isn’t as easy as have sex and then have a baby nine months later?
When did I say people shouldn’t go through fertility treatments? I don’t give a shit if people go through fertility treatments.
Cite for me standing in judgement?