Did nobody else get this? Maybe it’s just my job–seeing the impacts made by SUVs.
The decline of the American Car industry is infuriating. Personally I think it never lived down the horror of the planned obsolescence ‘campaign’ of the 1970s. Once you get it into your head that myriad problems are expected at 100,000 miles a cheap vehicle that is just getting broken in at that time (hello Toyota & Datsun) starts looking pretty damned good. And once a consumer switches brands of expensive items because of reliability issues, you’re toast if you’re the one they left.
And it’s infuriating because it didn’t have to happen. Saying it’s “too expensive” for highly paid Americans to produce high quality goods at a profit completely ignores the ubiquity of BMWs, Hummers, Mercedes, Volvos, Lexuseseses, Infinitis, Porsches (yeah, they’re doing so well here they’ve got an SUV now!)… Americans will buy expensive cars. If we know we don’t have to do it very often. The American car makers banked on consumers being blindly short-term economists, and now they’re suffering as a result. The irony of that is just too sweet, but now Americans (the laborers) are suffering.
By “other manufacturers”, do you mean manufacturers in countries with universal health care? Or is there a reason GM in particular has high health care costs?
Yeah, because they cut sweetheart deals with the unions. The health care package that GM’s workers get is way better than what you’ll find in other industries. From this article:
The UAW has been one of the most militant unions around. Despite getting way above average pay and benefits, they have in the past been willing to strike at the drop of a hat when their demands are not met. And benefits are always the easiest thing for a company to offer, because the bill doesn’t have to be paid for a long time. But now that retirees outnumber active workers by 2-1, the cost of this largesse is hitting the American auto industry hard.
IMO, a huge problem with the American car companies is that their designs stink. They seem to be at a total loss, with no ideas at all. They either copy something that worked 40 years ago (see new Ford Mustang), or they build something like the gawdawful Chevy HHR. My god, who the hell greenlighted this one? Its like a PT Cruiser, but 6 years too late, and way uglier. Who are they trying to sell this to? Remember the Pontiac Aztec? How much did they blow on that disaster?
I read that the health plans and pay for auto workers in Japan are equivalent to American auto workers. I haven’t been able to find a site though, so is there any truth to this?
In the January Playboy there’s a very interesting article by Arthur Kretchmer titled Car Wars. Essentially he framed the story around the news that Toyota was fast approaching the #1 overall ranking as a automaker based on sales numbers. From there he visited with executives within the big three and interviewed a variety of regulat Joe’s and “experts” in the industry and tried form an opinion on what was wrong with the US auto industry. I can’t find it online to link to, but if you’re interested in this topic I highly recommend it.
He echoed many of the themes alreayd mentioned here, here’s a couple highlighs which I took away from it.
[ul]
[li]The gap between perception and reality by the public and media regarding reliability. Pretty much every quantitative measurement places US manufacturers equal to or exceeding Japanese automakers in satisfaction and reliability. However car owners tend to view breakdowns of Japanese cars as the exception to the rule, while an equal proportion of breakdown by US cars are considered typical.[/li][li]Dismissing the female comsumer. US makers essentially neglected the woman in the process and are paying the price for it today. Decades ago they ignored the entry-level segment which was female dominated. As a result women have grown up familiar and comfortable with the Japanese badges. Also Americans marginalized the importance of the interior. Touch and feel elements being a top priority for women.[/li][li]Legacy costs. While the cost of Union pensions and health care amounts to $5.6 billion annually for GM, $7 billion annually gets paid to white-collar retirees. Its not just a UAW issue, it’s more a management issue. These legacy costs were predictable and they didn’t account for them. It’s a complex issue, but certainly not so simple as unions are bad.[/li][li]Duplication. US cars waste money on duplication of both products and parts. An example given was that GM makes 100 different dip sticks, each car has it’s own. Why not come up with one or two standard products for each of these trivial details?[/li][/ul]
Those are just one aspect and designs and market strategy are certainly factors, but I thought it was an elightening read. Basically the US makers have some underlying issues which cause problems and those problems tend to trickle down to the products that they put out
By most accounts the US makers are all on an upswing from both a design and quality standpoint. Analysts estimate that public perception takes 5-10 years to take hold so the US makers need to maintain the high standards of quality and appearance before the media and public opinion shift in their favor. Once that happens the playing field will level.
I hated the Aztek and I hate the HHR, Chevy has been the worst designed car IMHO over the last decade or so. Strangely I really liked the tail end of the Olds designs, I like current Pontiac designs and Buick is, while not great, much improved over the recent past.
Anyways, in the article I refered to above GM vice chairman Robert Lutz was quoted as saying…
While I think he overstates things a little bit, I’m inclined to agree to an extent. Looking at the Element and the xB and their success I’m inclined to think he has a point.
Similarly the Pontiac G6 is getting no love even though by most accounts it’s a hell of a car. Apparently he took a Car and Driver writer to the track after reading an article where he compared the G6’s performance unfavorably compared to the Maxima. Once on the track side by side the G6 kicked the crap out of the Maxima when driven by the C&D critic himself.
An couple examples of perception totally overshadowing reality.
I remember hearing at least ten years ago people started saying “you know, American cars aren’t that bad anymore. In fact they’re supposed to be just as good as Japanese.”
So it’s been ten years already and American car manufacturers are still in trouble. If part of that trouble is public perception then I’d say Americans have a much longer memory than five to ten years.
In my case, finding out about planned obsolescence really burned me. I can easily hold that grudge another twenty years.
It’s not enough for American cars to be as good as foreign. They’re going to have to be twice as good, and significantly less expensive than foreign in order to win me back, but I don’t see that ever happening. If I’m going to spend $20-30K on something as important as a car, it’s just too easy to not spend it at Ford or GM.
They’ve been saying that since the mid-90’s but I think it’s only over the last 5 years or so that JD Power, Consumer Reports and the various reliability statistics have actually backed it up. It’s no longer just PR.
Except that Japanese cars are made in the U.S., and I do not believe they have the UAW staffing their plants.
Toyota set up shop in Texas, home of the pickup market, to make pickups for the always popular pickup-truck market (resistant to oil crunches). That is a pretty bold move.
You know, you don’t even have to build quality cars to be successful. By far, the biggest bucket of bolts on the road are Mercedes, Volkswagen and BMWs. One might PERCEIVE quality, but the brands I just mentioned are in the pits with quality. They decided to compete in the market by being brands that offer driving/comfort, styling and performance respectively. But ask anyone about Mercedes and you’ll get the impression that was formed 25 years ago: high quality/reliability. Bunk. They just are not like that anymore.
Actually, I’ve read reviews where the chumps at Car and Driver,. Motor Trend and others have said things like, “even though it is not a reliable car, if you really want the ‘German e345’, by all means go get it.”
What hasn’t been brought up yet is the eternal churn and burn. They want to get you into a new car every three years. They want you to buy up and get more for less money. ‘I can get a new SUV every three years with Satnav and bun warmers for less than that econocar? Sign Me Up!’
Have that happen for a period of time and vehicles true costs get out of hand. Who cares that your dream car really costs $55k, the lease is only $600 a month! Then park a couple of planes into a couple of buildings. Consumer confidence falls, American manufacturers backpedal like mad trying to keep afloat, you can buy a brand new SUV for nearly the same amount of money as a two year old used one. The used car market as a whole stinks. Once they gave up the huge profit margin, they can’t get it back.
The industry is paying for poor economic decisions from the past decade or so and are just now catching up with them. They’re also suffering the effects of some NASTY economics.
I sure do like GM. Four of our last Five vehicles were GM. But Man do they produce some fugly stuff. The can make a killer motor, they can make a SUV ride smoooth. But they can also do some things that make you wonder if there’s anybody at the helm.
We can’t help them if they won’t help themselves.
Why? Did a UAW member kick your dog? Planned obsolescence is built into nearly everything you own, but I don’t believe it in cars for a second. It seems to me that for you $20-$30K you’d want the best product out there, instead of pouting about what happened ten years ago. All the better if it’s 90% made in America.
Yes, but if I’m going to spend $20-30K, do I trust people who’ve been putting out the highest quality since the beginning, or people who’ve just now jumped on the bandwagon?
But the Asian and European companies only sell their largest models in the US. Some are US-specific models that nobody in Asia/Europe would buy (e.g. Toyota Tundra).
yeah, we had a similar thread a couple weeks ago when we were looking at pictures of the detroit auto show. i’m from that particular city and my dad used to work in design. it doesn’t exist any more. those jobs ALL got outsourced.
unions aren’t necessarily the problem. the UAW gets wretched publicity EVERYWHERE and it’s not because they’re just a union. i believe in unionization. with that being said, yes, the UAW has had many sweetheart deals and gets good money. who says that blame can’t rest on the auto makers that agreed to those deals?
crap…i should dig up the old thread…but i don’t know exactly how to resurrect such a thing.
a thing about the old thread, is that a lot of people talked about how cool the new camaro looked and such. then they waxed poetic about their old, gas guzzlers back in the 60s and 70s. that’d be a fun counterpoint to this thread, i think.
in 1979, i bought a new chevy malibu. there were three or four recalls, and half a dozen warranty repairs. not long after the warranty expired, there were some major mechanical failures. all in all, it spent quite a bit of time in the shop. after five years, i traded it in on a 1985 S-10 blazer. this vehicle was even more prone to breakdowns and also spent quite a bit of time in the shop. i ended up giving it to the kids to drive back and forth to school. i spent a lot of time keeping it running.
since the blazer, we have owned two toyota corollas and three toyota rav4s. never a day in the shop among the five aside from routine maintenance.
some guy turned left in front of my daughter one evening, and that was the end of my involvement with chevy. based on our experience, i bought my daughter a corolla.
now i realize that my experience with gm was twenty years ago, but what would lead me to trust them now? they burned me on two new vehicles in a row. we have had six toyotas (including my daughter’s car) with no problems.
Well for one thing, buying a car isn’t always an entirely rational unemotional decision. You say all the better if it’s 90% made in America. That’s trying to appeal to my feelings of patriotism, which I don’t have when it comes to cars. I don’t think anyone in this thread has said American cars are better than Japanese. They’ve just said maybe they’re as good as Japanese. What am I going to spend $20K on if they’re basically the same? The company that didn’t burn me. You can call it pouting. I call it holding a grudge, which I freely admit to.
I’m not appealing to your patrotism. Why the hell would I do that? Everyone laments outsourcing, so to to me if I can buy somthing made here, it would be better.