That’s nice. That $6.00 will get you a drink in a bar in Canada.
Also, GM still pays out a $2 a share dividend. As long as they’re looking to stem the hemorrhaging, why not put that on the table?
My general feeling can be summed up with my search for a small, relatively inexpensive AWD wagon. There’s no such thing from Detroit, except maybe the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix (yuck, and it’s not much of a wagon anyway). I suppose I could get a BIG AWD wagon, like a Chrysler Pacifica that gets shitty gas mileage or a Dodge Magnum with it’s utterly ridiculous styling, but that’s not what I want. I’d consider a Ford Focus if it had AWD, but it doesn’t. I just want a little wagon with AWD. It’s not like I’m asking for something unusual here. So how hard are you going to make that for me, Detroit? Impossible, I guess. So I bought a Subaru. If I want a certain type of car, given all the resources at hand, I’d think American makers collectively would have multiple options. They don’t. Often they have no options.
Come on. Small cars didn’t sell during this period? There’s always a market in the US for small cars. It’s not either/or.
There’s always a market for small cars, but GM was making a buttload on the SUVs and breaking even on the small cars. Capitalists would say: “focus on the SUVs, stupid!”
It’s not that they didn’t exist its that SUVs and Trucks outsold small cars by a huge margin and have a much higher profit margin. Remember that over the last few years or so the Ford F-150 is the top selling vehilce in the country, at about a 50% higher pricetag than any small car. Before that it was the Taurus then the Explorer and before that it was the Caravan.
That’s not to say it wasn’t foolish to concede the small car market to the Japanese from a business standpoint, but to blame the US automakers for forcing SUVs on us is just stupid. We wanted them, we bought them, they provided them. People blaming gas consumption on domestic automakers are pretending that they prevented small foreign cars from being sold. There’s no one to blame for the glut of gas guzzlers on but the car buying public.
Additionally, remember that the Toyota Prius wasn’t that fuel efficient when it was rolled out. It turned in basically the same numbers as every other compact car, often worse due to it’s weight. The car was designed to be a clean car, not a fuel economy superstar.
Also keep in mind that Consumer Reports ranking are wholly based on consumer opinion polls, not real data. They do not measure repair costs or cost of ownership. They measure the opinion of people who fill out surveys and they do not require that those filling out the survey are actually owners of the cars they review.
Essentially they are a measure of the public opinion, not the reality of the situation. It’s a cute little self-fulfilling system they have. People think one car is good, they take a survery on it, then publish it to people telling them what they should think.
Omniscient, IMHO, it is Detroit’s responsibility to manage these issues.
If they are getting bad PR, they need to manage it.
If they are better and they can prove it, they need to demnonstrate it.
If they have higher quality, they should shove it down our throats.
If BORING BLAND COOKIE CUTTER CARS SELL, then don’t tell us we don’t want them…MAKE THEM.
IMHO, DRAGGING AMERICA THROUGH THE MUD at every chance given = American Industry suffers.
IMHO, Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Consumer Reports (they get subjective) are staffed by America bashers.
Alot of America bashing is warranted, and is a blessed thing in our free society, but IMHO, alot of America bashing (coporate America this, and corp America that) is flat out biased.
The auto industry needs to do more than make cars, they need to overcome the hate and prejudice many have --in this country-- against American corporations.
I agree 100%. By no means am I absolving the Big Three of the blame. They got themselves in this position in every respect. The public perception is their fault at it’s core.
Still, in the spirit of the SD, I think it’s fair to point out incorrect information when people repeat it. Public perception isn’t always correct so that should be clarified. Detroit should be working as hard as USA auto honks are to get word out.
I’m not so sure about that. Conformity and innovation are both smart design philosophies but they can be diametrically opposed. When you’re not leading the pack, I’m not sure imitating the leaders is the best way to raise your stature. You need a inteligent dose of both in the right places.
Also agreed. Though that’s not to imply that all the bashing is unwarranted. People and the media need to learn to see all the facts and be more willing to think about things. Corporate America has done some horrible and stupid things, Detroit being no exception, but that doesn’t mean you should start generalizing. Still in the free market it’s these corporations job to repair that image through both PR and real positive change.
I think it is quite interesting the Big Three might talk fom time to time about their credibility gap, but I don’t see them stepping up to the plate on the subject of warranties.
Companies like Hyundai have tackled their reliability questions head on with huge warranties (10 yr/100,000 on the powertrain with 5/yr 60,000 mile bumper to bumper). The consumer is taking a risk that Hyundai quality is better than in the past but it is a risk that is cushioned by the warranty.
If Ford offered a comparable warranty on the Focus I think there might be more takers. These days a company that offers 3 yr/36,000 gives the appearance that it doesn’t stand behind their product.
Of course, I hope you’re not looking for reliability. I mean, at 58K miles our Subaru with the 2.5L engine blew both head gaskets. At 62K, it lost some automatic transmission hose. Now at 80K I just replaced the battery (no biggie), one LCD clock, the full set of gauge lights and the rear defroster button.
And, as we’re continuing with anecdotal data, my friend just blew up the engine in her Camry at 60K miles. No abuse, the thing just died.
Conversely, my 1973 Cadillac Eldorado ran for 372K miles, lost half the cylinders and still ran. My 1988 Toyota Celica slipped the timing belt, was 180 degrees off time and still ran. Of course, with the Toyota, I won’t mention that it required repairs in the amount of FIVE TIMES the purchase price of the car in the previous year before it did that.
Anecdotes are pretty much crap when it comes to cars, but eveyone seems to base their decisions on them. If you haven’t checked out a decent American car lately, I suggest it. Try renting a Cadillac CTS or something.
I think it’s hilarious that eleanorigby says that one car is unreliable because the door chime kees going off, but another is reliable because it got 280K miles on the engine. Did you ask the Camry owner if anything ELSE had ever gone wrong on his car, or is miles achieved the sole measure of Japanese reliability, whereas broken geegaws are the sole measure of American reliability?
Don’t get me wrong. I love all cars. ATM, I have four Japanese and one American car, and they’re all great, depite varying problems. I will say that of all the cars I’ve owned (of many nationalities) the only one that has ever stranded me on the side of the road was a Japanese one. 
I think this is a pretty astute assessment. Certainly I think it’d have been a better promotion than the Employee Discount sales they ran like crazy. I wonder what the estimates are on the cost of a warranty.
Abso-friggin’-lutely. If they’re so darned good, let’s see it in the warranty.
Since this is IMHO, I’ll offer my HO. There are two big things wrong with the American auto industry.
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They need to make better cars. If they really did that, all of their problems would be over. In light of this thread and the claims of increased quality (for which I see no cites, btw, only anecdotal evidence that does not jibe with my personal anecdotal evidence) I asked myself honestly if price were not an issue, were there any American cars I would buy. The only one that I could think of is the new Mustang, and that’s because they kind of look like the old, golden-age Mustangs.
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The health insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry are literally eating all other industries in America. That’s because it is thought to be business’ job to provide health care to their employees rather than the government’s job to deliver a healthy workforce to industry. I think many businesses used to be OK with that because of the increased power it gave them over their employees (“You don’t like working double overtime for no pay? Fine, I’ll see to it that your kids don’t get to see a doctor.”) but now the healthcare industries totally have the upper hand and are able to command any price they want, and that’s taking a huge chunk out of the bottom line. Why aren’t the captains of industry calling for socialized healthcare in the United States so they rid themselves of a big red mark on their balance sheets?
Sure you can ask. I asked my FIL and he said, “They could never find the appropriate fuse/circuit.” I tend to look :dubious: at that, but he is the one (and he used to do all the repairs on his American cars) who took it to the dealer etc.
But here is one of my points: I shouldn’t HAVE to know all about cars to be able to buy one and trust it to work reliably. I have NO desire to work on my own car. I fill tires and gas tank and take it for it’s routine oil changes and maintenance checks. That’s all that should be required of me (and knowing how to change a tire–I do).
I’m happy to give you laughs, Necros --but that Camry is in the driveway, still works, has had new brakes and new tires and that’s about it, except for routine maintenance.
I can’t help but go by anecdotes. And they are unreliable as anyone wants to make them. A constantly dinging chime is hardly a geegaw–it’s enough for someone to dump the car.
The same thing with the shorted circuit computer thing in my dashboard of the Dodge: who is going to drive a car that the dashboard blacks out with no rhyme or reason?
Sometimes it would black out and then come right back on. It took forever for the dealer to take me seriously (the auto industry needs to find a way to cope with females) and when they finally did–it was under warranty(probably the only thing that was) and they were obviously pissed about having to take care of it. But they sure wanted my positive feedback on their cockamamie 5 star treatment surveys. :rolleyes: Re the back windshield wiper just wiping whenever the hell it felt like it–that was not considered a design issue and they refused to look into it. Just like the Ford dealer with the convertible–can’t fix it easily, then you have to put up with it. This is NOT good customer service. I would say the same if it were a foreign make, but that hasn’t happened with the “foreign” cars I’ve owned.
We have a friend, who started out as an engineer for Ford and then went to Toyota. He said something to us (while he was still at Ford) that really stuck with me. He said that “in the end, the consumer will adapt to the car.”
That strikes me as the Big Three’s attitude to their own industry. Yep, we DO adapt–which is why rental cars can be stressful for just that first day–but it comes across as callous and indifferent.
So, for me, it is not about the size of the engine, the “performance”, the styling or the sexiness. It’s a car: it conveys me from point A to point B. I want a quiet engine, good gas mileage, conservative styling and legroom. So far, Detroit isn’t talking to me. I don’t need a gas guzzler, a car that proves my penis is as big as my ego, a status symbol, or a man magnet (ha!). My market IS foreign makes.
It will take alot for American car makers to win me back.
That Probe was manufactured by Mazda and they were all crap. The only ford I’d buy now is the 2006 mustang GT and I wouldn’t drive it much. I agree about the cheap look and feel of the interiors on american cars, the last 3 Dodge/Plymouth vans we’ve had were very reliable but kind of cheesy on the inside.
One thing I’m seeing is that in the used car market, the major Japanese badges are 30-50% more expensive than comparable American cars of the same vintage, mileage and body style.
For the same money, I can get a 2004 Dodge Stratus with 25,000 miles … or a 1996 Honda Accord/Toyota Camry with 120,000 miles. I’m not seeing the value in the Japanese brands here.
My experiences are much in line with yours. However, I have seen many, many Japanese cars and trucks run forever. At the same time, I have seen many America cars do the same :shrug:
vibtronica–I agree with your post, but one caveat: it’s the insurance industry, specifically health ins that is eating the rest of the industry alive.
Many. many health care decisions (what to cover, what not to) are made by insurers with no health care/medical background whatsoever.
Believe me, the docs and nurses don’t like it either. We have FT people on staff whose job it is to make sure the i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed so that the hospital can get reimbursed.
Also, the unions wouldn’t have to agitate for decent health care bennys, if we had socialized med in this country–but that’s another thread.
Here you go: JD Power Don’t buy a MINI or a Kia
No, you wouldn’t if you were buying a used car. If the case is that those cars are as reliable as the Japanese ones (and I’m not saying that they aren’t), then the real value in the used car would be in the American cars.
However, the higher resale price is a big benefit to initial purchasers of the Japanese cars, since they will get more money when they are ready to trade in the car.
Glad you posted this. I’m in the market for a used car now, and the recent model Kias were tempting. They, too, are fairly expensive, though – not on the order of the Toyota/Honda/Nissans, but more than the America makes.