They just closed the Taurus plant. It was announced Monday.
There is no way the Impala is competitor to a Camry. It has a bigger engine, larger body proportions, and is overall a much higher end car.
I have come to this conclusion from this thread:
People who love cars, love American. People who want to get from point A to point B, will take Foreign. I don’t know what this means, but that’s what I see.
I was thinking of them too. They seemed to herald in a new era for American auto manufacturers. I had two friends buy them within about a year of each other. The one friend leased hers and got screwed when she moved out of state and ended up having to buy it, but the car was very reliable for many years. She bought it around '92 or '93 and as far as I know, she still has it. It costs a lot to maintain now, and it’s basically a clunker, but it still runs. My other friend got rid of his after about five to six years. I don’t think it was because it broke down or anything, he was just sick of it.
I’d driven both those cars and in both cases, I thought they sucked. They seemed decently reliable but they also reeked of generic, generic, generic. I drove my female friend’s Saturn about two years ago and after all these years is still bugs the crap out of me how small it is inside and how the electric widows work. The controls are in the center consol, and to me, they work backwards.
It was a good start though, for American car manufactures. Did they ever make anything of themselves? I don’t hear about Saturns much these days.
I was under the impression that the British car industry was the victim of horrible mismanagement. But then, the histories I’ve read have been of BMC/BL.
I disagree. Go back and look at the list of cars I’ve owned. The cars I’ve loved were British and German, and they were not mere conveyances. I put a premium on handling. If there’s a lot of power, so much the better. The MGBs weren’t very fast (a bit over 100 mph max) but they handled well. The 924 was a little faster and handled better. The 911 handled extremely well, and was also fast.
IMO American performance cars are designed to operate on wide, straight roads. European performance cars are designed to operate on narrower, twisty roads. Some ‘people who love cars’ just want to go fast. Others, like me, want to maneuver.
They’ve turned into just another generic GM label. I have a 2001 L300 which had many build and electrical issues. And it’s not looking like it’s going to last forever, either.
My understanding is that all the new Saturn models have those issues. I won’t buy another.
“Following the market” you say - and that’s exactly the problem. The big three are “following the market,” while who’s leading? Big hint: it’s not them.
Now that consumers are demanding better gas mileage, Chevy’s come out with a big campaign: “We offer X models of cars (I forget the exact number) that get 30 mpg or better.” That’s a good step, but it’s three years too late - my Mazda sport wagon already gets 30 mpg or better, regularly, even in the cold, and it’s a 2002. I’d hazard a guess that the majority of Toyota’s or Honda’s models get over 30 mpg, not just a small selection.
No, hybrid technology isn’t the solution. But it’s a step in the right direction. And maybe Toyota’s losing money. But you know something? They sell like hotcakes. You can’t go to a dealer without looking at a 6 - 9 month waiting period. I know - we went to Toyota, inquiring about their Highlander Hybrid, only to be told “we don’t have one, and the waiting list is 6 months long.” Went next door to Ford, who’s using Toyota technology (with their own modifications) in their hybrids, inquired about the Hybrid Escape, and there was one sitting on the lot. We bought it the next day. It’s only recently that I’ve seen Ford advertising this car. I’ve seen a grand total of **one **other Escape Hybrid driving around. You’d think that they’d look to Toyota and market it - perhaps they’d have similar sales (and waiting lists) to match. But nope. I like Ford, but I think they’ll sit back and watch while Lexus commercials are playing on every network and Toyota sells hybrid after hybrid.
Does my husband’s Ford get great gas mileage? No, not really - his best mileage only starts to approach my Mazda’s average. Is it a solution? No, but it’s a start. Yet it seems American manufacturers won’t start down that road until they’re forced to. Marketing is killing the American manufacturers, and they’re going to let it happen.
Lots of what slaphead said is dead on, in my opinion.
No, I got the point of mack’s post. As you correctly surmised, I was using his post as a launching off point for my dueling anecdotes. 
But you miss an even bigger point that perhaps even mack missed: If you are looking for a car available in the US with the capabilities of a Subaru Outback, you are pretty limited. In fact, your choices are limited to, well…Subaru. Otherwise, I guess you could buy a Pontiac Vibe (made in conjunction with the Toyota Matrix) or an Audi A4 wagon with Quattro or a Volvo V-series or Mercedes C-class or BMW 3-series (all for about $15K more than the Subie).
So, I wouldn’t say that Subaru is a good example of Japanese companies giving people what they want. It’s an example of ONE company in the world filling a niche market with AWD on every vehicle and an all-boxer-engine lineup.
Oh, and the Saab wagon you mentioned? Did he by any chance buy a Saab 9-2X wagon? Saab is not owned by Ford, but is owned by GM, and has been for a while. Of course the 9-2X isn’t s Saab design, either. It’s a rebadged…Subaru WRX. 
Go to Edmunds.com and do a comparison of Buick Century, Limited Edition (top version) vs. a VW Jetta with the 2.0T (not even the top version GLI).
Both compact sedans, within $1,000 of each other (Buick is a bit more).
The Jetta has more power, better mileage, and comes with a large range of standard features that *aren’t even an option * **on the Buick. And these are pretty nice and important features including:
The Buick has few things that the Jetta does not, and most of those are minor (more power seat memory settings, cargo nets, etc.)
Which would you buy? After enough similiar comparisons its not wonder domestic cars lose out.
But you’re asking a mountain goat to be good at running on the savannah.
US spec cars in the US don’t need to deal with displacement based taxation, 7 buck a gallon gas, roads that haven’t been widened since they were created by the Romans, cities that max out at 50-100 miles apart, and small areas of Europe that, before traffic congestion, Had No Speed Limits.
US cars DO have SIGNIFICANT emissions requirements that put Europe a good 10-15 years behind the curve.
All of these things go into the design mix.
Now, if you’re talking power production. The only thing that matters is how much air and fuel you burn to make that power. Do you make it at 2500 rpm with displacement, or do you wind the turbos higher and do it with rpm? Does your packaging permit a large motor or a transverse mounted 4 banger? Does your build budget allow for Turbos?
You can’t say ‘5.7 litre Chrysler engine that only puts out 340hp vs. Audi 4.2L and 4WD.’ without taking everything else into consideration.
I guarantee you, you don’t want to be driving a Smart 'cross Australia…but a Holden Monaro (with big lumpy V8) would do rather well.
That could be because they aren’t making the Buic Century anymore. Maybe?
One one hand, I feel bad, because I think American companies suffer from Corporate America Bashing…
…on the other hand, I look at Saturn - a company that was developing its own (postive) identity - and then I don’t feel so bad, because it needed to maintain its distance (even if perceived) from GM and yet it is just another GM division now.
IMHO, I’d abolish references to “GM”. It is LONG OVERDUE. “General Motors” has image problems, rooted in its history. It sounds clunky, old and I think of crappy mills in Deroit cranking out big iron…and I am a car guy who knows better!
I think the easy part for GM and Forrd and Chryco (considering how cars are made now, flexible plants and platforms) will be to roll out very very specific well targeted products. The challenge is overcoming their image.
Think about SUVs: They are big old heaps, and where better to go for a big old hunk of iron than to Detroit?
IMHO Succces for Big Ol’ Detroit = moving headquarters to a greener place, like Southern California, dumping references to “GM”…getting rid of that Old OLD OLD Ford badge, etc.
I think Tokyo…I think “High Tech”
I think Detroit…I think Smoke stacks and a second rate murder capital that shouldn’t have the Superbowl.
Think Germany: Autobahn…performance…intense German engineers.
Don’t tell us what our perceptions SHOULD BE, react to what our perceptions REALLY ARE!!!
Remember how the “k” always fell off?
Well, Edmunds pulled it when I searched for New midsize cars $15-25K to compare. Didn’t notice it said 2005 (why the heck would Edmunds do that anyway…)
But either way, this makes it even worse. So this Buick cost more in 2005 than a brand new 2006 Jetta today, with way more features?
I’m a gay man and you know what? Based on that alone I’d buy a VW or a BMW because both of those car companies have acknowledged my existence. Most American car commercials lead me to believe they’re being driven by the kind of people who would take me out in the woods, beat the crap out of me and leave me for dead.
I want a great car. I don’t want a truck/SUV that can rescue the loggers on the top of the mountain while dragging a space shuttle behind me.
The Century. I haven’t read many good things about VW reliability and service.
I test-drove a Jetta back in the '80s. I liked it. (I kept the 924 I had at the time though.) One thing I noticed when I moved to L.A. was that the Jettas I saw seemed to become ratty at a quicker rate than other cars of the same vintage. Could just be that those are the ones I happened to see. More recently I read a zillion-post horror story about a guy’s unbelievably poor service of his Golf at a VW dealer. I’ve heard that the VW New Beetle requires a special tool to change out a headlamp (or a $50 trip to the dealer). I like the Golf, but I’ve just heard too many bad things about newer VWs. VW’s reputation, to me, is approaching that of the Detroit automakers.
Another issue that I don’t think Detroit has dealt well with over the years is designing cars for the woman driver. And I don’t mean a lipstick mirror. I mean allowing the seat to move forward so that a 5’2" driver can reach the pedals comfortably, and without having to reach behind her to put the car in drive. This has never happened to me in a Japanese or Korean car, but it has happened in a Pontiac Sunfire, which is a tiny car you would think would be tailored to a smaller driver, and also in the Chevy Cavalier which was not all that big either. No amount of arguement about performance and reliability will convince me to buy a car in which I cannot reach the controls.
I know quite a few women who haul horses prefer the Toyota Tundra because the interior is more friendly to the smaller driver.
The Mazda Miata (aka sporty roadster) is another car Big 3 don’t seem interested in making. What do they have that’s even slightly similar? The Crossfire? (worst car name. EVAR)
Ignoring the fact that both cars appeal to different demographics, ALSO continue to ignore that the Jetta got a BIG redesign in 2006. Ignore any rebates or incentives, and lastly, ignore the Lucerne, which is Buick’s new baby.
(I know nothing about it other than the name, I don’t know how it stacks up against the Jetta, I just know the starting criteria for the experiment was stacked towards the Jetta.)
People want to be winners, they want to feel their decision is better than others., usually at someone else’s espense. That naturally extends (by marketing) to what you drive.
Besides, of the big three, one is REALLY German, and the other two OWN most of the smaller European companies.
Japan was set to take over the world til it’s stock market upended itself. The Japanese make incredible cars that make more power using spoilers (to add downforce to the non-driven tires) and stickers. I like the 'ru, Evo, and other Japanese cars, but will most likely never buy one.
The American Cars are built in Canada, Mexico and eventually China. The Foreign Cars are built in the US. (but that doen’t count as the profits go overseas.)
GM’s profit center isn’t cars, it’s financing.
So, everything you know and love, is wrong. The sooner you come to grips with that, the happier you’ll be.
Drive whatever the hell ya want, just know that your car is best…unless it isn’t. But don’t lose a whole lotta sleep over it.
Fair enough, but I chose a VW when I was looking for a new car ('03 GTI), and have had not trouble at all. Niether have my parents (04-passat).
I agree, than VW’s reliability rating have not been the greatest, but when I was looking into it at the time, VW’s problems were much different than many other cars. They had a higher number of minor problems (switches, lights, heated seats, mirrors, etc.) but very few major issues (engine, transmission, cooling, computer, etc.). May be annoying, but wouldn’t leave me on the side of the road.
I decided that more features, better interior, better handling, power, mileage, and not to mention availability of a 6 speed, outweighed potential minor problems.
pssst. Saturn Sky and the Pontiac Solstice
(Better Late than never…course it’s not like tons of MR2’s got sold. Altho, Lotus is seeing good sales figures. I’d need one for each foot tho.
I did forget about the Solstice, its pretty cute. Wasn’t it new in 05 (I seem to recall its debut at the Detroit Auto Show Jan 04)? So it only took, what, 15-20 years for an American car company to offer something comparable?
And the MR2 was stone cold ugly. I think the Nissan Z (which is not stone cold ugly) is doing alright for that niche market.