I probably should have said IMHO that G-d gave us the capacity for these things which separate us from the animal kingdom. We still had to do the work, the achieving.
He would have had to create a species that wasn’t dependent on human bodies if no one is supposed to die or is it just children you want to exempt?
How do you know what we shouldn’t be? Whining and blaming really add to this experience. You have a lovely way of hypothetically victimizing mankind one minute and praising him the next.
I was answering the OP, obviously what you say and what I say are only our opinions. Nothing I say about G-d’s existence takes away from our “noble adventure” or our amazing achievements. We were created to do exactly what we are doing. If there is a G-d, you label all this as some kind of horrible experiment and if he doesn’t exist, it is some sort of noble journey. Doesn’t make sense to me that what we’ve done here hinges so much on why we’re here, when it’s not certain anyway. G-d doesn’t exist for you, that’s fair; I can respect your opinion on that. It seems that it would be better to ignore his possible existence than have anger over it. Also, feel free to ignore me. I know a positive attitude can be downright irritating at times.
God gave us the capacity? What in the heck does that mean? If I’ve built a grand and efficient and beautiful bridge, and someone comes along and says, “Hey, you couldn’t have done that if God hadn’t given you the capacity to do so”, don’t you think that’s demeaning? Not to mention meaningless? I created that with years of sweat and toil and genius, and then someone attributes my achievement to something as nebulous as capacity granted by something as nebulous as an invisible deity. And what you’re doing extends that example to everything ever achieved by the whole human race.
Well, he’s the omnipotent one, and you’ve yet to provide any rational reason why anyone should suffer, so why the heck can’t we be done with suffering altogether? If you’ve got an omniscient, omnipotent deity backing you, it should be pretty easy to rig.
I’m not whining, and you’re the one placing the blame on mankind. I’m saying that we, as a species, have risen to astonishing heights, and we’ve become noble and beautiful and wise in so doing. Attributing that achievement to God, while attributing all the bad stuff to mankind is demeaning, belittling, and petty.
We deal with a tremendous amount of crap in our lifetimes; disasters, medical problems, insanity, death. And we, for the most part, deal with it well and move on. To attribute the good we do to God, while blaming us for the ills that befall us, is just plain mean.
I’m not surprised. I’m going to state it as plainly as I can: If something bad happens through random chance, it’s an accident. If something bad happens because someone did it deliberately, it’s assault.
In your cosmology, we’re all victims, at the mercy of a bewildering and indiscernible deity who has unknown motives for subjecting us to random torments, tribulations, and triumphs. You have to try and figure out why things happen, because everything is caused by an omniscient, omnipotent intelligence; nothing can happen by chance. And so you’re left trying to read the tea leave left by events, ekeing out a possible motivation for your deity, while never knowing if the lesson that you’ve learned is the intended one.
In mine, bad things happen, and good things happen, and some are accidental, and some we bring on ourselves. Some are caused by other people. I am grateful to those who do me good, I avoid those who would do me harm, and I deal with accidents as they come up. I learn what I can from all these events, and I never have to wonder why a god would do such a thing to me; things sometimes just happen. I bask in my achievements, admire the achievements of others, and do my best to make sure I help as many as I can. I learn what I can from all of it.
What you see as a positive attitude, I see as a capitulation to an abusive relationship with a deity who you can never know, and thus never do enough to please.
And I’m not angry at god, or the lack thereof. I’m angry at people who attribute all good things to God, give a vague and unsatisfying explanation as to why their god allows terrible things to happen to innocent people, and then expect the whole world to think that they’re good people with great attitudes just because they follow this belief.
God did not think up this method, or any other method, we did. Quit blaming God for all the bad things you see in the world.
Is this understandable? God is love, unconditional love. We were created in His image, perfect as He is, but we got lost in the materialism of this physical world and became fearful for our existence. We forgot His love for us, and His eternal care we enjoy. We started to blame God and one another and anything else that came along. We live in denial that we cause the horrors and destruction seen in this world. So, until we acknowledge our mistakes we will have to continue living in this mess.
Now, there are some who do see the reality of what I write and begin to follow the path of love, teach love, and try to help. They will “graduate” from this place and go to a better one to continue their spiritual growth. The others will stay on this circle of life, reincarnating hundreds of times until they too see the reality of what is happening here.
What do you want me to say. Okay G-d gave me the capacity. You, he skipped? Your parents combined their genes to create your capacity for “genius”. Someone read to you as a child or whatever. Does that take away from your achievments because someone helped you become more than you would have under other circumstances. If the whole human race achieves more because of some little nudge G-d gave them, it doesn’t take anything away from hard work and dedication. This is obviously a moot point since for you there is no G-d.
Well obviously G-d has free will too and he’s not inclined to do so.
I’m just telling you that we all bear responsibility for our actions and lack of actions. This is not about blame, except for yours to point fingers at a G-d who just in case he exists is obviously an unfeeling bastard.
We have a looonng way to go before we can pat ourselves on the back too hard. G-d created good and evil. But the ills that befall us are not about who deserves what or who should be blamed for what. It is life. It’s messy. It’s not for sissies.
Well G-d isn’t assaulting people on a regular basis, as far as I know, so random chance it is.
You are only reading every other word I say? This life is not about figuring out why behind everything or some motivation. It’s only about doing your best and then some. I don’t really expect to understand a lot of things, who cares. I’m busy living and helping my neighbor. I use tea bags, so tea leaves are out. This thread was about why G-d created disabled babies and I was only trying to give my opinion.
Hey, me too. No different with or without G-d, now is it?
I know him. There’s always more I can do and I always try to do more. I hope he’s pleased with me or at least has a sense of humor. I feel his presence and he’s not kicking my ass, so I guess I’m okay.
I guess you’ll just have to be angry at me then. I attribute all to G-d, good and bad, because he created everything. I don’t believe he is actively affecting events in this world, so events are random and many are man-made. The effect my belief in G-d has on me is to make me work hard, love others and do my best. Would have done that without G-d too, probably. Pretty much just like you. The only thing that I feel that has been added is that I feel extremely loved by G-d, lucky to be alive, no matter what happens and it has given me a lot of comfort and peace. If I ever get a better answer to why bad things happen to good people, other than that we’re living in a real, physical random world right now, I’ll let you know.
What I want you to say is that you know no more about the nature of the universe through your faith than I do through my lack of faith. I want you to concede that everything you believe may be wrong. And then I want you to make sure that every believer everywhere does the same thing, so people will stop screwing up my life in the name of God.
You deserve an explanation of why this issue arouses my ire, I think. You see, I’m gay. I’m in a long-term committed relationship with another man. As you’re aware, the majority of religious people in this country are putting pressure on legislators to make sure that my boyfriend and I can never enjoy the same rights as heterosexual married couples.
What bothers me is that there is no discernible reason to do so. We’re not hurting anyone. We’re not trying to undermine anything. We’re just trying to make sure we can take care of each other in case of disaster, we’re trying to make the best future together that we can.
And yet religious people seem certain that what we’re doing is wrong, that we must be stopped. What bothers me most, I think, is that when you question them as to why, they never have adequate answers. They address the ‘sanctity of marriage’, but can never explain why that sanctity is threatened by people who love each other. They claim that we’re sinners, but never explain how it can be that loving, cherishing, supporting, and caring for another person can be sin to anyone but a deranged lunatic.
You don’t have answers. You’ve just got questions, same as the rest of us. You get a warm fuzzy feeling from your god, that’s great. Have fun with that. But if you’re going to use your religion to make other people’s lives miserable, if you’re going to sit in judgement over others and claim God as a source of authority, you’d better understand him well enough to answer some simple questions about his basic nature.
Let me clarify one more thing. I don’t have any idea what your position on gays or gay marriage is; for all I know, you’re a staunch supporter. I’m just trying to point out, in the context of this debate, that a religious understanding of the world inevitably boils down to “Well, we just don’t know.” And that deriving moral authority from what you assume an uncommunicative god whose nature you don’t understand and whose motivations are a mystery is absurd.
Oh, and about this:
“It is life. It’s messy. It’s not for sissies.”
I beg to differ. Sometimes the sissies handle it better than anyone.
MrVisible, I don’t think it’s fair to blame all religious people for the bigotry of some religious people. I think for the people to which you refer, who use their religion as a cheap justification for their hatred, that the hatred came first. If they didn’t have the religion, they would no doubt find some other excuse. No one group has a monopoly on intolerance.
I don’t blame all religious people for the bigotry of some. Religion leads some people to become good, and others to become despicable.
My point is that religion is a poor basis for public policy. When the devout can’t understand the nature, desires, motivations, or methods of their deity, it’s absurd to expect others to conform to their interpretation of that deity’s wishes.
Once religion became a driving factor in public policy in this country, it became fair game. I’d much rather never address the subject; as long as it’s kept out of politics, it seems like a relatively harmless belief. But when some people use religion as a cudgel against people they don’t like, expect religion in general to come under scrutiny.
I’m in the unfortunate position of having to defend myself against religiously-motivated attacks, and in the course of doing so, I find it’s necessary to expound upon the absurdies involved in religious faith. Believe me, it’s a battle I’d much rather avoid.
Everything that I believe may be wrong. I have some very good reasons, personal experience, that makes me certain this is not true. But, there is always the chance that my mind, which perceives and evaluates all of my experiences may be faulty. I could be delusional. I can’t operate on that premise, because I seem to function quite well in all other areas. But okay, there is always that chance that I could be wrong. As for other believers and I do use the term loosely, I have and do try. I can probably dig up cites for those attempts, but just know that I have.
The majority of religious people are not doing this. The loud minority is. The majority is not doing enough to stop them, though; so is guilty by association. Most of the “religious” people I know are not against gay rights, but neither are they interested in them. That leaves the field wide open for the nutcases to have their say.
I agree.
This is not about religion, although it is hiding behind it. It is about fear of anyone perceived to be different. It’s about hate and insecurity. Public policy should NEVER be based on any religious beliefs. That is a horrible way to represent the people.
You have made assumptions about me based on your perception of my “religion”, but believe it’s wrong of people to make assumptions about you based on your sexual preference. Let me share my religion with you. I don’t have one. Why not? Because after years of fighting the prejudices, the exclusionary practices and the hate, I determined that not only did religion have nothing to do with G-d, but it actually was against G-d. When I used to be a Christian I had to spend too much time, clarifying all the things I didn’t agree with Christianity on. I turned my back on the faith that I had held for 40 years. Huge, hard step for me to take. But I had to distance myself from the bigotry in order to not be part of it.
Exactly, you don’t know my position on it. You perceived me as religious and I’m not and then assumed I was part of your problem, which I’m not. I am a stauch supporter of the right for anyone in a loving committed relationship to be able to be married. I don’t have a clue why gender should matter at all. I don’t see what it takes away from me. I only see that it can add happiness and protection to someone else. Why wouldn’t I want that?
When I vote for president, one of the most important issues, in the past for me, has been the pro-life issue. But the statement Bush made last October about protecting the “sanctity” of marriage from being tainted by gays made me sick. The smug self-righteousness of it literally made me physically ill. So needless to say, he won’t be getting my vote. The Bible is being interpreted to fit an agenda and when they’re done, it doesn’t resemble G-d’s word at all. I know you don’t believe in G-d, but this is not some character fault in G-d. It’s just man being wrong.
Okay, change sissy to faint-hearted. I didn’t mean to step on the sissie’s toes.
Of course it’s different. Let’s say a Satan-worshipping camp was buried by mud on Christmas day. The Christians would come out of the woodwork to tell the world that God is angry, this is His retribution, and those people deserved it.
Yet, when you replace “Satan-worshipping” with “God-worshipping”, those same Christians will explain how God is simply testing the faith of His followers and how He works in mysterious ways that man cannot know.
Religion is all about putting the right spin on things–primarily that “we’re good and if you’re not one of us, you’re evil.”
Well I can’t disagree on the “spin on things”, but religion often doesn’t have very much to do with G-d, either. Mudslides only have to do with the actual physical aspects of our world. There is no divine meaning in it. No reward, no punishment, no test. It’s just an awful event, no matter who gets buried. Hey, G-d loves Satan worshippers too.
I don’t believe that these babies are God’s creations nor do I believe that God is responsible for their existence or what we, as weak humans with little faith do with/to these little innocent souls.
I don’t know if you believe in God or not but I do and my belief is that there is another god who roams this earth and that’s Lucifer.
I believe that Lucifer is the one responsible for anything that is “imperfect” and the suffering it is meant to bring.
If Lucifer wants to test our faith in The Almighty by giving us a child that is meant to burden us or cause us to lose belief in God Almighty - let him.
A true believer in the One TRUE God will love this child and will know (because of his faith in God) how to deal with whatever “problems” may come along because of the state of this child.
Lucifer has one purpose and one purpose only…To keep us away from God and do anything he can to make us lose any faith we may have in Him…Nothing is beneath him…Nothing…And that includes presenting in our lives what may be (if not for our complete Faith in God Almighty) a torturous situation not only for an innocent new life but for us a human beings.
Whatever happened to all sin is equal to G-d or the hundreds of other promises in the Bible? Forgiveness isn’t conditional. Lucifer is a religious concept, not a god. If you believe G-d created everything, then you can’t just let him off the hook for the bad stuff.
Handicaps are not caused by the “devil’s work”. An imperfect human(by our “typical” standards) doesn’t mean they aren’t perfectly loved. What, when I see a “disabled person”, I’m supposed to think, “there goes the devil’s handiwork?” Give me a break. People are not all perfect carbon copies, due to evolution and other factors, and the only true handicap is in someone who expects everyone to be like they are.
Yeah, come on, Satan! Let me show you how strong my faith in the other guy is!
Of course, by saying that, you’re actually exposing the fact that you’re more certain in your belief in Satan than your faith in God.
And so will any decent, intelligent and strong human being, no matter what their faith.
Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to put a face to all the bad stuff that happens to you. Of course, the problem is, how do you tell what’s sent to you by Satan to separate you from God, and what’s sent to you by God to challenge you and bring you closer to him?
Must be tough going through life like that. “That was Lucifer’s. That one was God. Lucifer. God, definitely. Lucifer, Lucifer… Nope, that was God. Sorry. Damn.” What if something’s good and bad at the same time? Were Satan and God collaborating that day?
What a bizarre viewpoint.
You see, IWLN, I wasn’t assuming your religion, or your stance on gay rights; I was simply arguing with some of the foundations of your belief. Up until recently, I’d sworn off doing so; it was no skin off my nose what someone believed.
However, now that religion has come out swinging, trying to destroy my chances at having equal rights with heterosexuals, I’m no longer willing to let any of the assumptions that religion makes go unchallenged. If they want to influence public policy to perpetuate intolerance and discrimination, they’ve lost the immunity that I was previously willing to grant them from scrutiny.
If religions feel free to try and keep my boyfriend and I from being equals in our society (and they sure do seem to be doing just that), then I find it necessary that the beliefs on which this discrimination is based are absolutely laughable. When all that religion can use to support itself is “we’re not meant to understand” and “you can’t understand without faith” and the ever-popular “Satan is to blame”, it’s hardly a good foundation on which to build public policy.
To sum up: I’ll stop questioning religion when religion no longer threatens my family. And I’ll be very glad to do so.
I don’t care if you question religion, which I sincerely do too or even G-d. That’s perfectly within your rights. I would never post anything here if it wasn’t open for debate and yes even ridicule. That’s okay. The foundations of my beliefs have nothing to do with the violation of your rights, but if you disagree with that, go for it. There was this gay guy that ran into my car once, so of course I hate all gay drivers and I dated this guy for 2 years and he turned out to be gay, so men must be scum too. :rolleyes: Sorry, but it seems about as reasonable to me to single out individuals or their faith and probably about as effective. I don’t know what the answer is, but I’ll just bet it’s not going to work to attempt to topple religion one SDMB poster at a time. There just doesn’t seem to be that many people here who wouldn’t like to see you treated equally.
I never heard anyone teaching the doctrine of two Gods, one of them being Lucifer. I have never run into any evidence of two Gods, but if I should see Lucifer, I will tell him about God’s love. He has as much a right to go to heaven as anyone else.
People are not all perfect carbon copies, due to evolution and other factors, and the only true handicap is in someone who expects everyone to be like they are.