Don’t you just love it when the rationalizers say that somewhere, sometime and in some manner, people were and are violating “God’s laws” and therefore this innocent baby of innocent parents was born with spina bifida?
It is to laugh if it weren’t so sickening.
Hmm. How many such tests are needed? It seems that God is kind of overdoing the test cases, what with disabled babies, war, terrorists, drunk driving, cancer, earthquakes, and hundreds of other kinds devastating events, both on a personal level and a global level.
And, speaking of excessive testing, how come it doesn’t seem to matter at all whether or not people pass these tests? God subsequently shovels equally hard follow-up tests at both of them.
Shouldn’t the guy who passes the tests get a little break on the next one? Similarly, the guy that never passes the test shouldn’t be given more disasters to handle–that’s not testing anymore, that’s just torture.
Sorry David, it doesn’t work that way. The sins of the father are not passed to the son. Each individual stands on their own record. It is the fairest system of justice imaginable. No one gets away with anything. Yet all “righteousness” is favored with spiritual growth.
Love
For those that walk the path of Love, forgiveness, and compassion, life does get easier and the mind clearer in the process. But those that walk the path of fear, and darkness life will get harder and harder. That is exactly as it should be. There is perfect justice in the spirit world.
Love
So then, what does it mean when a mudslide buries a Christian camp on Christmas day?
If they aren’t because of sin, why do they exist?
But you seem to have already conceded that some of these “imperfections” (such as birth defects) are not due to humanity’s choices. So then to what are they due, and how do you contend that humanity is responsible for such imperfections?
Uh, I’m pretty sure one of them was gonna be the next Hitler?
Too much moisture in the ground, just the right amount of angle and people in it’s path. Would it be different if it were an atheist camp?
I’m having trouble believing how many people are buying God’s Education by Disaster plan. What kind of teacher would try and teach their students by just letting random things happen to them, and expect them all to draw the right conclusion from them? That’s not education, that’s abuse.
If you assume that some divine being is in charge of everything that happens, and that everything happens for a reason, then that being has to be arbitrary, capricious, and cruel. What lesson can be so valuable that children have to die in pain to teach it? What kind of lunatic would kill a child painfully just to teach a lesson?
If, on the other hand, you assume that the events of your life are without purpose, then the nobility of the human spirit is thrown into sharp relief. Bad things happen, and they happen often. And people come to the aid of others, they help solve problems and fix damage and cure injury. If a lesson is learned, it’s because the people involved wrested something good from the midst of the disaster. If someone grows stronger because of hardship, or becomes a better person, it is because they chose to look for a way to become better through it.
Saying that God gave them the hardship so that they could learn a lesson is demeaning to the courage and benevolence of everyone who has ever lived through disasters and emerged a better person. I don’t see anyone rushing to give God credit for the father whose life overwhelmed him to the point where he went off the deep end and killed his wife and children.
If you had a parent who constantly took credit for your successes, but punished you severely for your failures, and for random failures you had nothing to do with, local Child Protective Services would show up pronto.
I am responsible for my failings. I am responsible for my success. It is up to me to deal with the bad things that befall me and those I love, and to get better at dealing with difficult issues so that I am prepared if they arise. It is up to me to make sure that my actions hurt as few people as little as possible, and benefit as many as I can. I alone must fulfill my commitments, keep my word, and live up to expectations.
I deserve the blame for my failings. I deserve the credit for my success. I deserve the love that is given to me because I have made myself a good man.
In this world, everything doesn’t turn out for the best. Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. Life is intrinsically unfair. And yet, an overwhelming percentage of humans are good, decent people who care about others and make their way in the world as benevolently as possible. Giving an absentee or lunatic god credit for that is unconscionable. Instead, let us celebrate the wonder that is the human race.
No, it’s being allowed a full range of experiences.
Dying is not bad. Unless you consider change bad. Or you believe that’s the end. It’s sad, but not bad.
That’s what’s supposed to happen. You can refer to it as learning when man digs through and finds something good, but it takes on a cruel aspect if the same thing is required by G-d?
G-d didn’t give us hardship so we could learn a lesson. He gave us life and the ability to handle it.
You know, I believe in G-d and I am still proud of my accomplishments and don’t feel like my failures are some sort of punishment. I am grateful to him for the opportunity to suceed and angry at him for the pain, at times. I’m human.
And how did this happen? You learned through experience how to be a loving, decent human being. How is that a lousy plan?
Yes, for most of us, we’re doing the best we can. This life is not about rewards and punishment and you can live it effectively without giving G-d blame or credit. Without even aknowledging him. That was his intent.
Hmm… how about the spouse of someone disabled coming here and telling you that?
:::raises hand:::
Sure they do - when my husband was about 4 years old he couldn’t help but notice all the kids were walking but him. And the other kids in the neighborhood weren’t spending time in the hospital getting surgery. Or spending weeks or months in casts.
He’s actually smarter than average, you see - it’s his body that doesn’t work right, not his mind.
Even a lot of “mentally disabled” kids figure out that the word “retard” is an insult, and figure out very young they aren’t like everybody else.
I can not tell you why each event happens as it does, but I can tell you there is a purpose to it.
We humans do such horrible things to each other. Just look at the holocaust, the inquisitions, slavery, and the thousands of children who die from lack of food.
This happens because some people are full of fear. They erronously believe there is not enough goods to go around. They hold a fear-driven need to possess large sums of money, power, fame or infamous noterity. They are willing to lie, steal, cheat, and even kill to achieve their purposes. They fear others are trying to take things from them, even kill them, such is the insanity of what we sometimes call life.
That fear was not put into these people by God. When God created His children they were perfect in every way, full of love, caring, and compassion for others. They are still perfect, but have learned to fear through their contact with the physical world. They have forgotton who they are. They have forgotton their Father’s love for them. This fear is an obsession. It controls them every minute of every day. It clouds their thoughts with feelings of anxiety, hopelessness, inferiority, and depression. They lash out at themselves and others though many paths: drugs, alcohol, sex, criminal activity, and others far to many to list.
This fear becomes externalized in the horrors we see daily. But for each horror there is a purpose. That purpose is the revelation of our inner confusion and our lack of purpose.
I have never seen such an outpouring of love in the aftermath of 9/11. Millions of people gave their time, money, and love to the victims.
I was close (in Tulsa) when the Oklahoma City federal building was bombed and saw thousands of Tulsans drop everything and go to Oklahoma City to help in any way they could.
Yes, it is sad we must learn through disasters what could be better learned in our daily relationships with others. But the fear we carry is buried deep and requires strong measures to see the wastefulness of it.
The picture (link provided) is horrible, but even here there is a purpose. It may keep someone from drinking and driving. It may even cause some to give up drinking altogether. Small victories at enormous prices unless you understand who you are.
Learn to love, people. Learning to love doesn’t mean you will have no more hardships or disasters, it does mean you will be able to handle them and use them to grow spiritually.
I know when I was told, by my doctor, that I had only about 6 months to live, I thought that was the most disasterous thing ever to happen to me. I look back on it now with the understanding that it was the best thing that ever happened to me in my whole life. That was 16 years ago.
Love
So the only way that God can come up with for us to learn these lessons is to kill thousands of people, parents, children, friends, etc. so that those left behind can become better people? That’s the only way? He can’t think of anything else that doesn’t involve killing thousands of innocent people? Hmm… how about that.
You were in Tulsa. You learned from the experience. Do you think the lesson was worth it? Remember the day care that was blown up? Those babies? Think about the grief the familes are still living with. Do you really think your lesson was worth the grief those familes are feeling?
And if you allow a child a full range of experiences, and never explain to them what is right and what is wrong, what will hurt them and what will help them, you just leave them to fend for themselves, that’s a bad thing.
Ah, defending a god’s right to painfully kill a child. The things we do for religion.
If a rock falls off a cliff and breaks my arm, I learn not to walk close to cliffs. If someone throws a rock at me, and tells me it’s for my own good, I’m going to be pretty pissed off.
If you fall off the roof accidentally and land on a trampoline, and thus lose your fear of heights, it’s a good thing. Stupid, but you learned something. If someone throws you off, no matter what the results, it’s either cruel or stupid.
So God, in other words, is completely irrelevant. No surprise there. If he doesn’t communicate with us, doesn’t do anything to uplift the faithful or destroy the unbelievers, doesn’t intervene for even the weakest of his children in peril or distress, and there’s no discernible difference between a godless world and one in which God exists, then what good is he?
Are you saying we were given no clue as to right and wrong? No guidance whatsoever? Where did our very basic sense of right and wrong come from? How did we become so different from the animal kingdom? Our compassion, our devoted nurturing, our selfless sacrifice, etc. Do you really believe we just happened to drag our human uniquesness out of the ocean with us, but it just waited for the right random species to show up in?
You and I kill children painfully, everyday we don’t do enough to help. And we can never do enough. G-d doesn’t kill children, but neither does he save them. Neither do we. That’s just not what happens in this world. This world is only important for what we take away from it.
It’s not about punishment. If you’d like to make it about something you can blame on G-d, then let’s at least call it neglect and reckless endangerment. Do you have a better plan? Maybe you could advise Him.
He is not present in this world, if you’re looking for someone to physically make your life easier. He does communicate. He doesn’t uplift the faithful, except emotionally, spiritually. He doesn’t destroy unbelievers and hopefully never will. Physically, he doesn’t usually intervene. We’re supposed to intervene and do everything we can to help. He didn’t leave us alone, he left us with eachother. Fully equipped to deal with what this random world gives us. He isn’t irrelevant, but he is quiet. His active interference in this world might make it better as far as pain and tragedy goes, but it wouldn’t make us better. It would take away a lot of choice and keep us from becoming what we should be.
Never at any point do I think bad things are okay, cause hey, we have the next life to look forward to. I’ve screamed and cried and watched helplessly while loved ones died. I lost a baby. Have disabled family members. It hurts to read the paper. It hurts to not be able to do more. Life hurts. But it’s still amazing and I’d like to stay here as long as I can and do what I can.
I think that way back in the dawn of humanity, we had no idea what right and wrong are. I think that society gives us the moral tools we need to be good people. We evolved intelligence that allows us a better chance at survival, and that intelligence made it possible to build societies. And societies thrive on order, law, and good behavior.
A more complex explanation, perhaps, than ‘God did it’, but a more satisfying one IMHO.
Ah, but God is omnipotent, and could easily keep every child on the planet from suffering or dying. And yet he doesn’t. If I stood by while a child was killed in front of me, and I had every chance in the world to stop it from happening, wouldn’t I be culpable? Whatever my motivations for doing so?
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.
You have a lovely way of phrasing nothing at all. How do you know what we should be?
Believe in whatever you want, I guess. But there’s no evidence that your God exists at all. And if he does exist, this life seems like a cruel experiment by some arrogant schmo, while if he doesn’t, life seems like a noble adventure by an amazing race of people. You’ll understand, I’m sure, why I don’t waste my devotion on your god.
You need to read my post again. Your reply is so far off base it’s not even in the ballpark.
Love
You said:
A purpose means there is an indented result. That is, it is done for a reason.
Like if I trim my trees, the purpose of doing that is to make the tree healthier. If, while triming my tree, I cause a branch to fall on my car and crush it, that was would be an accident. It was not the purpose of me trimming the tree. Even if a benefit happens like I get a new car, that cannot be said to be the purpose of me trimming the tree. If I want a new car, there are better ways to do that. If I need to trim the tree, I can find a way to do that without crushing my car.
You pointed out several tragedies and said how they brought an outporing of love and support. So are you saying that the purpose of the tragedies is to produce love and support?
I think it’s odd that if God wants us to feel more love and support for others, the best way he can think of for doing that is to have someone blow up a building full of innocent people. I would think he could think of a better way to accomplish the result of producing love and support.
