Why does God Permit....

Great Debates
41

Why doesn’t God snap his fingers and make the Devil disappear? Why did God create a devil in the first place? How can an omnipotent being ever be “at war?” Why am I not 'worthy" of God’s mercy? What did I do? Isn’t God’s mercy supposed to be unconditional anyway?

If it’s so important for us to choose the good spook over the bad spook then why doesn’t the good spook actually…you know…prove he fucking EXISTS? This is one one of the most salient points to me – that we’re just supposed to guess without evidence which religious myth is the “true” one. As I’ve said many times, that’s akin to God asking people to guess what number he’s thinking of between one and infinity. What is the moral justification for denying “salvation” to good people only because they didn’t guess the right number?
it sounds to me like all the Christian answers to the POE in this thread boil down to “cuz God is a dick, that’s why.”

Incidentally, the Free Will defense fails abjectly as an answer to the Problem of Evil. Not only because Free Will intrinsically incoherent but also because an omnimax God has the ability to create only people who will only choose good. God can’t escape responsibility for people’s actions because he knows what they will be before he creates them.
The truth is that there is no answer to the POE. Many have tried. None have succeeded. If there is an omni,max God, then God is logically responsible for all evil.

42

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
It’s also pointless, since he could have just made us “worthy” to enter his “paradise” in the first place; he’s torturing us because of his own poor craftsmanship. A totally uncaring God would be far better.
[/QUOTE]

This God, who knows all, is the same one responsible for…hmm.

  1. Mass genocide down through the ages.
  2. Individual suffering of such profound depth that people of all ages take their lives to escape the endless agonies of physical ills, attacks of all kinds and so on.
  3. Hunger, war, poverty, suffering, rape, torture, disease.

And yet we should all bow our heads and be mighty grateful for the “opportunity” to suffer so that we can get into Paradise? Is that it?

Spare me. Find me an omnipotent being who can do some freakin’ good in the here and now, and I’ll be suitable awed and will be glad to pray to It.

Being told to suffer gladly in order to pay forward a ticket to eternal fun is a whollatta bunk. ( And, other things better suited to The Pit. ).

Suffering does not equal piety and those who believe it does are Sadists not theologians.

Cartooniverse

43

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Also represented in the parable of the lost son (aka the prodigal son) in Luke 11:15-32 (since this is long and well known I won’t post it).

The son in this case leaves the ‘estate’ of the father to find his own way. The father allows it, at which point there is no reason for the father to do anything for the son, and the son is outside the estate, and therefore outside the controlled area of the father.

Again my interpretation.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t this analogy completely works, either. It puts us in the position of being the “prodigal children”, whereas (as you yourself say) we actually had no say in rejecting God. The fall of man was not our decision. It may have been our relatives, but it seems somewhat unfair and pointless to punish people for the sins of others.

I suspect your answer to this will be “Ah, but we can rejoin God”. Perhaps so. But (if I may make an analogy of my own) if we sentenced a man’s children to death for his crimes, and relented if they apologised, that does not make things alright; we should never have placed them in that situation in the first place.

44

Many of us do not believe they are denied “salvation.” (I don’t even like using the word myself.)

You speak of “before” as if all Christians believe that God is relegated to time as we humans know it. That’s rather limiting. I find myself thinking that way myself, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the right way to think.

Human beings don’t know the answer to the POE. I surely am interested in knowing the answer. Don’t know that I ever will.

If there is an “omnimax” God, then God is “logically” capable of being responsible for all “evil.” Things may not be as they seem. I don’t know.

It is refreshing to read your intelligent criticism of Christian thought and to know that it comes from an informed mind.

45

kanicbird, some religious organizations capitalize pronouns referring to divinities and others don’t. I was an editorial assistant at the United Methodist Publishing House in the late 1960’s (before I graduated from college). One of my duties was proofreading. Our in-house style manual said not to do so. I think the Baptist publishers, a few blocks away, did capitalize.

Chirp!

46

[QUOTE=Zoe]
Many of us do not believe they are denied “salvation.” (I don’t even like using the word myself.)
[/quote]

I know that. I’m only talking about those who do believe this.

Expanding beyond the temporal doesn’t solve the problem because God is still omniscient even outside of time and if he creates individual souls it still requires individual decisions made with full knowledge of what those individuals will do.

It’s not a question of limited understanding. It’s a logic problem. Humans can already understand everything they need to understand in order know whether A is logically compatible with B. Some people think in terms of God having “reasons” which humans don’t understand, but that still misses the problem that for an omnimax God, no reason can logically be necessary (or else he isn’t omnimax), therefore, no suffering or “evil” can logically be necessary. There is no goal which can be accomplished by allowing evil which can’t be (instantly) accomplished without it. An omnimax God cannot logically require a means to end, he only has to will the end.

If God is omnimax, he HAS to be responsible. Evil cannot exist without his knowledge and will, and no evil can logically be necessary for an omnimax God to acheive any goal.

Thank you. I hope I don’t sound too harsh. The POE is a big one for me. It’s one of the primary reasons I can’t believe in God. I’ve seen every angle on it and I think t’s insurmountable.

47

And I have always said that if God permits questions, this is the first that I will ask: Why has he allowed such suffering.

Yet I can point to four specific deaths that had to occur within two to three generations above me in my family line – or I wouldn’t exist. I am the end result of horrible suffering and grief. That doesn’t make me very happy but it makes me think maybe I ought to put a sock in it when I want to shake a fist at God.

No, I don’t undestand it. No answer satisfies me.

48

I won’t pretend to have the answer to the POE, but I would like to point out the fact that we must differentiate the POE from the POS (Suffering).

Suffering (war, hunger, other people’s evil) is not a moral burden on the sufferer. It does not substract from the potential for Salvation of the sufferer. Every person under any circumstances still has (should have, at least, if God is fair) the same ability to Save himself by bowing to God. Unborn babies, Mother Theresa and Hitler all face God in full understanding (i.e. with full understanding of God and Creation) and make a decision on whether or not bowing to God (i.e. repenting of all sin, if any) and opt for full Salvation or banish themselves to Damnation (a state of constant flight from “that from which you cannot flee”). Mom has a picture of you with your hand on the cookie jar and you can smile with your teeth full of chocolate chips and say “sorry” and get a hug or you can spend the rest of eternity saying you didn’t do something there is a picture of.

What they have suffered in the material life is no match for the reward in the afterlife. Any length of time is nothing compared to Life Eternal. Human suffering is inconsequential. An artifact of Creation.

What suffering they have caused, though, does make a difference in facing judgement (and that judgement decides what the afterlife will be) and that is why it makes sense to live the material life even if it is insignificant in contrast to life eternal. It is easier to say “mommy, I am sorry” for eating a cookie than for bludgeoning your baby brother to death with the cookie jar, after all. Even if you know that mom will forgive you no matter what.

The suffering you cause is insignificant to the victims of it but places a burden on you as you must ask embrace it at some point. Particularly if your bad deeds are done in knowledge of their evil or in defiance of God. If mom always bakes you cookies and you eat a cookie without knowing that this batch was for something else, it will be easier for you to face mom than if she told you not to eat them in the first place.

So suffering is inconsequential for its victims. No need to worry about the victims of injustice which you cannot help and no point in asking why you are suffering.

Causing (and of course, allowing) suffering, though, raises the effort you will have to make to embrace Salvation.

You must be Free to choose between embracing this Salvation or rejecting it. It is the one significant choice you will make in your Life. The choices you make in life and that lead to it will modify how you face the opportunity for Salvation but will not limit your choice.

Evil is then a personal issue. You bring Evil upon yourself but not upon others. This Evil is all your own making. God makes you free to choose it but doesn’t impose it on anyone and is not responsible for suffering.

The POE remains for an omnimax God, of course. Why would God make you Free if He knew you would choose Evil (i.e. not seek Salvation)?. Even if your evil is inconsequential to the rest of Creation, you still remain a blemish in what should be a “perfect” Creation. Are you really Free if God already knows what you will choose? Is God really omniscient if he doesn’t know what you will choose? Maybe that is just the boundary of God’s omniscience. Maybe God only knows all there is to be known and your choice is not to be known until you make it.

49

[QUOTE=Sapo]
What suffering they have caused, though, does make a difference in facing judgement (and that judgement decides what the afterlife will be) and that is why it makes sense to live the material life even if it is insignificant in contrast to life eternal. It is easier to say “mommy, I am sorry” for eating a cookie than for bludgeoning your baby brother to death with the cookie jar, after all. Even if you know that mom will forgive you no matter what.
[/QUOTE]
This is a horrible standard. If we don’t need to care about people on Earth, just our own salvation (an inherently selfish world, by the way), and the only thing between us and our salvation is that it’s difficult to apologise for what we’ve done wrong, pretty much all truly evil people are getting in. How many bad people actually consider themselves bad? To use your example, Hitler didn’t seem to think he did anything wrong. If he had the choice between apologising for his crimes and damnation, I think it’d be pretty damn easy for him to pick the former, and pretty damn easy for him to apologise. Those who cause the most suffering would get away scott-free, and those who had a conscience but failed sometimes would be in for a hard time.

50

[QUOTE=Sapo]

Suffering (war, hunger, other people’s evil) is not a moral burden on the sufferer. It does not substract from the potential for Salvation of the sufferer. Every person under any circumstances still has (should have, at least, if God is fair) the same ability to Save himself by bowing to God. Unborn babies, Mother Theresa and Hitler all face God in full understanding (i.e. with full understanding of God and Creation) and make a decision on whether or not bowing to God (i.e. repenting of all sin, if any) and opt for full Salvation or banish themselves to Damnation (a state of constant flight from “that from which you cannot flee”). Mom has a picture of you with your hand on the cookie jar and you can smile with your teeth full of chocolate chips and say “sorry” and get a hug or you can spend the rest of eternity saying you didn’t do something there is a picture of.

[/quote]

What a disgusting, immoral view! No, the sufferer has no moral burden - but the cause does. A mother who beats a child, which is nothing compared to what god does, would be a child abuser. God is infinitely more despicable. Plus, there is the case where people suffer without eating the cookie. What exactly was the sin of babies who died in the tsunami?

Then you think torture doesn’t matter? Mr. Rumsfeld, I presume? :slight_smile: You say it only matters when facing judgement. If there were no god, would torture be okay in your book? If God really meant suffering to not matter, he could tone down the pain, right?

How can something be done in defiance of god when god does not make himself known? If God really cared about us, he wouldn’t make us guess about his existence.

51

[QUOTE=kanicbird]

Well this is my interpretation, the great grandparents of that mouse told God to f’off and let them and their offspring live their own life. This symbolized by the fall of man.

[/QUOTE]

Ah, the Fall of Man. An interesting problem for you. Do you believe, against all the evidence, that Adam and Eve and the Garden actually existed? If not, then there is this problem. Many of the fairy tales in the Bible can be seen as parables, illustrating important points. But if you are a Christian, our sinful nature comes from people in the Bible making a choice - people who never existed? So, who made the choice? Some homo sapiens? Someone older? Without Eden, the whole we are responsible bit falls apart, and there was no Eden. And if we are personally responsible, and absolutely no one is good, we know whose fault that is.

52

[QUOTE=Zoe]
And I have always said that if God permits questions, this is the first that I will ask: Why has he allowed such suffering.

Yet I can point to four specific deaths that had to occur within two to three generations above me in my family line – or I wouldn’t exist. I am the end result of horrible suffering and grief. That doesn’t make me very happy but it makes me think maybe I ought to put a sock in it when I want to shake a fist at God.

No, I don’t undestand it. No answer satisfies me.
[/QUOTE]

I trust you understand how the POE is no problem at all for the atheist. Natural disasters happen because natural processes care nothing for anything, let alone humans. Human evil is no problem since we are all born with a variable level of what could be called morality, and while some people are naturally good, some are naturally bad.

I understand that theists have a problem with a “purposeless” world, but it seems an easier thing to believe in than a world where an entity who could stop the evil (even natural evil) but chooses not to.

53

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
This is a horrible standard. If we don’t need to care about people on Earth, just our own salvation (an inherently selfish world, by the way), and the only thing between us and our salvation is that it’s difficult to apologise for what we’ve done wrong, pretty much all truly evil people are getting in. How many bad people actually consider themselves bad? To use your example, Hitler didn’t seem to think he did anything wrong. If he had the choice between apologising for his crimes and damnation, I think it’d be pretty damn easy for him to pick the former, and pretty damn easy for him to apologise. Those who cause the most suffering would get away scott-free, and those who had a conscience but failed sometimes would be in for a hard time.
[/QUOTE]

First, I am not saying that you live to get Salvation. My point was in response to the predictable objection that if mortal life is nothing next to Life Eternal, then what is the point of living a mortal life at all?. We live the mortal life because that is what shapes what Life Eternal is going to be for us. The sufferings of a mortal life are nothing compared to the rewards (or the suffering) of Life Eternal.

As for Hitler, if he had no intention to do evil, did he really commit any? Sin requires intention to commit sin in order for it to occur. Did he cause suffering? no doubt. Did he commit sin? that is only for him and God to know. He will see the Glory of God and the fullnes of his actions and their consequences. It will be up to him to believe that God can forgive him (and He certainly can) and embrace Him.

54

[QUOTE=Voyager]
What a disgusting, immoral view! No, the sufferer has no moral burden - but the cause does.
[/QUOTE]

My point precisely. Suffering has no consequence on the victim, only on the causer.

[QUOTE=Voyager]

A mother who beats a child, which is nothing compared to what god does, would be a child abuser. God is infinitely more despicable.
[/QUOTE]

Again, when you put it in the perspective of Life Eternal, this is more like taking your baby to the doctor or for a hair cut or make them eat their veggies. Do kids like it? no. Do they need it? yes. Who is the better mom, the one who shields the children from the pain of the needle or the one that takes them to get all their shots?

[QUOTE=Voyager]

Plus, there is the case where people suffer without eating the cookie. What exactly was the sin of babies who died in the tsunami?
[/QUOTE]

They will eat The Cookie in Life Eternal. And they need not have any sin. If they have none, they will have none to respond for. And before you say they are then getting a free pass and it is us getting shafted for not being that lucky to die without sin to respond for, that doesn’t mean they will have no challenge in front of God. They will have to face the pardon of all those who did commit sin (even agains them) and accept to share Salvation with them.

[QUOTE=Voyager]

Then you think torture doesn’t matter? Mr. Rumsfeld, I presume? :slight_smile: You say it only matters when facing judgement. If there were no god, would torture be okay in your book? If God really meant suffering to not matter, he could tone down the pain, right?
[/QUOTE]

If there were no God, then nothing matters. You just maximize your gain and anything you do that doesn’t maximize your gain is sheer stupidity. What you call your gain is entirely up to you. If it is offspring, comfort, approval of others or of self, then you go out and do what you must, be it rape, accumulation of wealth, charities or good deeds. Choose your delusion.

And again, the pain is toned down to insignificant in the scope of Life Eternal. How much lower can you tone it down?

[QUOTE=Voyager]

How can something be done in defiance of god when god does not make himself known? If God really cared about us, he wouldn’t make us guess about his existence.
[/QUOTE]

If God exists, what more proof do you want than the universe itself? And if your mom cared about you, what did you know about her existence in the first seconds of your life when it was all doctors tugging you out, bright lights and fluid in your lungs?

55

[QUOTE=Voyager]
How can something be done in defiance of god when god does not make himself known? If God really cared about us, he wouldn’t make us guess about his existence.
[/QUOTE]

I really respect how you are going about your debate, but this paragraph above all else states the entire problem quite elequently from where I sit.

How all-loving can this god be if everyone who dies, dies wondering about the basis of their faith? That is the ultimate torture, IMHO.

56

[QUOTE=Sapo]
First, I am not saying that you live to get Salvation. My point was in response to the predictable objection that if mortal life is nothing next to Life Eternal, then what is the point of living a mortal life at all?. We live the mortal life because that is what shapes what Life Eternal is going to be for us. The sufferings of a mortal life are nothing compared to the rewards (or the suffering) of Life Eternal.
[/quote]
Nonsense. Future pleasure does not make up for present agony.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
As for Hitler, if he had no intention to do evil, did he really commit any? Sin requires intention to commit sin in order for it to occur.
[/quote]
Sin is an arbitrary religious term; it means whatever the religion in question says it does, which may or may not involve knowledge, intention or acts. As for evil, ignorance and/or lack of intent needs to pass the reasonabilty test to serve as an excuse. Was is reasonable for him to think the things he did were good ? Not even close.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
My point precisely. Suffering has no consequence on the victim, only on the causer.
[/QUOTE]
An utterly evil viewpoint, one which can be used to excuse any crime, any atrocity.

[QUOTE=Sapo]
If there were no God, then nothing matters.
[/QUOTE]
If there is a God, namely your God, then nothing matters because we are nothing but victims in a hell-universe ruled by an omnipotent monster.

57

It’s not a crock, it’s a mystery. Uh huh.

58

[QUOTE=DtC]
Why doesn’t God snap his fingers and make the Devil disappear? Why did God create a devil in the first place?
[/QUOTE]

Satan and God seem pretty chummy here:

[QUOTE=Job 1]
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
[/QUOTE]

Not like you are going to off your friend right away when he goes bad.

[QUOTE=DtC]

How can an omnipotent being ever be “at war?”
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps a truly omnipotent being is not possible, again why did it take 6 days to create the universe, why one day to rest?

You, through sin, have chosen to serve the devil. You also exist in a place under operational control of the Devil (cited above).

Nope, for one:

[QUOTE=James 2:13]

For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DtC]
If it’s so important for us to choose the good spook over the bad spook then why doesn’t the good spook actually…you know…prove he fucking EXISTS?
[/QUOTE]

Wag, loss of operational control of the world. You may personally get a better ‘proof’ of existence from the bad spook, since he has command and control of the world, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

It’s more like granting salvation to those who believe, our default is destruction.

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]

I don’t this analogy completely works, either. It puts us in the position of being the “prodigal children”
[/QUOTE]

OK what if we add that the lost son had children, and the grandfather accepted them?

Our parents are responsible for where we are, they have to make choices for us. If a couple loves the concept of communism so much they move from the US to Red China, there they have children who live a miserable life in sweetshop labor. Is this God’s fault, or the child’s fault? No, it is the situation the child exists in, which on our case will, on our own lead to destruction.

[QUOTE=Voyager]
An interesting problem for you. Do you believe, against all the evidence, that Adam and Eve and the Garden actually existed?
[/QUOTE]

Yes as a symbolic representation of the first attack of Satan against man, the beginning of the operational loss of control of the world.

59

[QUOTE=Sapo]
First, I am not saying that you live to get Salvation. My point was in response to the predictable objection that if mortal life is nothing next to Life Eternal, then what is the point of living a mortal life at all?. We live the mortal life because that is what shapes what Life Eternal is going to be for us. The sufferings of a mortal life are nothing compared to the rewards (or the suffering) of Life Eternal.
[/quote]
I find myself confused. Surely God, being omniscient, already knows what Life Eternal is going to be for us? He doesn’t really need to send us to Earth; unless, of course, existing on Earth is actually important for us, which would tend to make suffering important for us too.

I’m afraid you haven’t alleviated my discomfort. You seem to be agreeing with me that Hitler’s going to get salvation whilst an sometimes bad but otherwise nice person with a conscience will have a harder time.

Your argument appears to be an attempt to seperate “evil” from suffering; and interesting point, but it still doesn’t get around the idea that God is not only good, but benevolent. A benevolent God would not treat suffering - even suffering that may later appear unimportant - with an uncaring eye.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
OK what if we add that the lost son had children, and the grandfather accepted them?
[/QUOTE]
We’re still not responsible for the choices of another, whether that’s our father, mother, grandfather, etc.

Right! And God is akin to our parent. He is responsible for where we are. He has to make choices for us; he is thus responsible for us.

It’s the parent’s fault, since they made the choice to move there, and God’s fault, because he created the miserable situation needlessly. The child has no responsibility for the matter (unless of course they’re able to escape and don’t do so).

It’s the situation that’s to blame? As in, that China has sweatshop labour (i’m assuming you didn’t mean sweetshop labour; cheap lemon sherbert for all!)? I’m afraid God has responsibility for that, too. God takes the blame for the situation, as well as anyone who caused it, not the child.

60

God is a character in a story, nothing more. You might as well ask “Why does Bugs Bunny Permit…” or “Why does The Count of Monte Cristo Permit…”.