Why does my car CD player fail this way?

First, I’m not looking for advice in fixing it - as you’ll see, the obvious way of fixing my CD player is to trash it and get another.

First the symptoms, and then my uneducated guess about the cause. I’m interested in a failure analysis.

My CD player is 8 1/2 years old, original equipment in my Saturn. In the winter in California, it often does not work in the morning - with a few exceptions. It sometimes gives an Error immediately, and sometimes displays the track, then the time, then the track, etc. until it gets an error.

The exception - if a CD is in, and the car is shut off with the CD player on, the CD often plays just fine. However taking it out and putting it in again gives an error, and even turning to the radio, then going back to the CD gives the error.

This basically never happens when the car warms up (and dries out!) in the afternoon.
Some CDs are harder to play than others, but all fail sometimes, and one or two fail all the time. They’re all commercial CDs and relatively old.

That’s the evidence. I know about moisture issues, and this is certainly part of the problem, but I don’t see why it wouldn’t affect a CD already in, and why it would affect a CD that plays, stays in while I go to the radio, then fails when played again.

I’d bet some of the anti-skip memory has failed. The anti-skip feature works pretty well, but could the long delay be an attempt to fill an increasingly faulty memory before it gives up and fails. I’d assume the error rate when reading bits is higher in moist conditions. One other piece of evidence - CDs in the car overnight sometimes get wet from condensation, so I understand why they wouldn’t play, but ones brought from the house fail just as often. Other CDs in the car play fine.

Thoughts car stereo experts?

Just an uneducated guess…

In the morning condensation forms on the laser lens that the laser has trouble reading through. If a disc is in the player it covers the lends so no condensation forms on it. If you remove the disc, even for a couple seconds, that’s enough time for condensation to fog up the lens again.

A plausible theory - except that it fails even when I don’t remove the disk, and just switch it to radio, then switch back to the CD.

I have a CD cleaner disk, and once tried to fix it with that, but it didn’t work - though the level of moisture might have caused it to fail no matter what the lens was like.

Anybody? Have I stumped the Dope? :slight_smile:

This problem has all the earmarks of bad logic circuitry. Sometimes, for whatever reason, complex electronics like VCRs, CD players and digital cameras can get their little built-in computers all scrambled and they get stuck in a bad mode. Sometimes, removing all power from the devices for a while (as much as a few days, in some cases, but typically a few hours will do the trick), will reset everything and it will start working normally again. Of course, if it’s a physical problem with the unit, like burned-out transistor in the control chip, this won’t help. It’s worth a try, though.

Or, when it’s cold, the lubricants on the mechanism that transports the CD to the spindle have a greater viscosity and the CD doesn’t seat properly on the spindle. Years of accumulating dust in the mechanism would tend to aggravate such a condition. A warm interior would tend to alleviate it. This would explain why CD’s that remain in the player overnight work okay in the morning, but inserting a new one fails.

Rather than replacing the thing, I’d try to remove it and take it to an audio/electronics repair shop for a thorough cleaning.

And a quick question. Are you a smoker by chance?

That’s pretty good, but it doesn’t explain this symptom in the followup by the OP:

That sounds like more than a simple mechanical problem to me. Could be partially due to lubrication issues, I’ll grant you, but there’s evidently more to it than that.

Q.E.D. 's explanation is most plausible especially with the comment about switching from CD to radio and back.

But, perhaps your power supply is failing. Instead of 5VDC you have 4.74VDC.

  1. Winter = cold = increased resistance so the power supply drops to below logic chip level.
  2. Motor to spin disc drops voltage, switching to radio brings voltage back up, switching back to CD does not drop voltage since motor is still spinning/warmed up.
  3. Taking the CD out uses even more motors dropping the voltage but having the CD already in does not require as many amps.

You’re right. It doesn’t. Unless when the unit is switched to radio, the spindle is disengaging from the CD somehow. I’d have to see what’s happening inside there. Could be a failing servo.

Or, what if there’s dirt on the surface of the magnets that hold the CD in place on the spindle? If you get a piece of crap in there, then maybe they aren’t traveling far enough to tell the machine it’s okay to start the spindle.

You’re right. It doesn’t. Unless when the unit is switched to radio, the spindle is disengaging from the CD somehow. I’d have to see what’s happening inside there. Could be a failing servo.

Or, what if there’s dirt on the surface of the magnets that hold the CD in place on the spindle? If you get a piece of crap in there, then maybe they aren’t traveling far enough to tell the machine it’s okay to start the spindle.

I’m going to go with a bad ground or voltage drop in the power supply when cold. I have seen lots of strange faults in cars where something does not work when the car is first started, but starts working 30 seconds to 10 minutes later. Almost always these problems can be traced to a high voltage drop on either the power or ground side when cold. As the ground connections heats up (sometimes only a couple of degrees) it tightens up and full useage is restored.
In the case of the OP, the voltage drop could be on the power or ground side, and it could be inside the unit or external.
Where exactly is it? That’s is why I got paid the big bucks. I know where and how to find it. :eek:

Don’t think so. I’m an expert in bad logic circuitry, and this does not have any of the characteristics of that. Now temperature affects circuit speeds, and I did think of that, but I’m positive it wouldn’t affect it enough to cause the kinds of failures I’m seeing. Not only that, the problem is more humidity related than temperature related.

I am fairly sure I’ve lost some part of my memory, though. I’d assume that the thing is designed to work with less than a full complement - that is fairly easy to do.

Nope. I don’t think anyone has ever smoked in my car during its lifetime. Good idea, though.

That’s interesting, but doesn’t quite explain why some CDs play and not others, and why the behavior continues even when the inside of the car has warmed up.
I’m in California, remember, cold in the winter is not really cold (40 degrees, maybe, or more.) It’s hard to believe that the power supply is that sensitive.

The idea of a mechanical problem with the spindle seems most plausible to me. The open question is: what is different between turning the player off and switching to the radio? Does the player move away from the head in some sense? If it is a bit further away than it should be, could that explain why bigger disks play better? Not likely, since they are thicker upward.

I need to see if I can find a web page explaining the innermost workings of this thing. Thanks for the suggestions.

Based on my experience with electronics, doing so may temporarily relieve the problems, but they will fail again in the same manner after a period of time. Unless it is under warranty and you can get it serviced (paying a guy an hourly rate to spray it with compressed air and rub an alcohol swap on it) for free, it is far more cost effective to just trash the old electronics and buy a new more reliable system.

I have spent my entire career in automotive in California (central and southern) and I have seen this exact type of failure many times. For example I have had cars that when you started them up cold (65-70F, first thing in the AM in summer) would have no fuel or tach gauges. After 30-60 seconds gauges would work. Problem turned out to be a loose ground screw on the back of the cluster.
So yes it happens even in mild California.

Hmm. That’s worth a look at. Thanks!