First, trust me, “stuff” going up your vagina can feel really, really icky, too. There’s nothing about women’s bodies that make it more natural-feeling to be raped.
And I don’t understand why you are calling it an analogy. Anal rape exists. It isn’t made up. It happens to both men and women.
Painful pinching? Seriously?
How about it being closer to being stabbed in the eye with a stick? Actually, I have had a cat claw in my eye. It hurts incredibly, but it’s a way more isolated pain than sex-related ones have been. The intercourse pains have been breathtaking whole-body agony.
Aren’t I allowed to have an opinion? I was pretty candid about it probably being a minority opinion. And others here who have been raped have claimed to feel similarly to how I expect (Stoid, for instance). Your telling me how I should feel if I am raped is presumptuous, and holds as an unfounded premise that I am not very self-aware.
The smugness is obvious. Inferring that my choice of the word “attacking” is “interesting” is an embarrassment to the psychological profession. I don’t at all see how it is “basic social skills”.
Is this hyperbole or is this experience common? I have had intercourse with hymen-intact virgins on a number of occasions, and though it was obviously painful, it was not at all clear they were experiencing “breathtaking whole-body agony”. And I hope you don’t experience that every time you have sex.
I don’t. Thanks ever so much for caring.
Oh, and losing my virginity was painless. See? People are actually different, physically. And until you come back with a report of being anally raped and thinking, during the act, “Gosh, this is just like a wet willy, isn’t it!” I’m going to have a tough time taking some pretty unfounded opinions seriously.
Despite what you may think, I do care, but were you expecting sympathy in this thread? I’m just interested in the truth, and that means cutting through possible bullshit.
Perhaps you have misunderstood something I’ve said. I never said that all people are the same.
Look, I had been arguing applying only rationality and logic in this thread, until I decided I would open up a little and add that I also have a subjective opinion on the matter. If you don’t like it fine. Take it or leave it.
You are making things up, claiming them as truth, then sneering at other people’s experiences and saying they got the equivalent of a wet willy. “Possible bullshit” doesn’t even cover it.
Rationality and logic would be to look at evidence rather than equating things by appearance alone. I find it extraordinary that someone who could offer up the wet willy equivalency would then try to argue he’s on the side of rationality and logic.
I’m going to guess you’re really young and have never been on the receiving side of penetrative sex. You’re arguing from a very ignorant place. It looks rational and logical to you because you are ignoring half of the facts.
This is a funny thread coming just a few days after I commented that someone in another thread sounded like people who say, “Oh rape is just terrible, but it’s not like it’s causing any actual damage or anything.” Funnily enough, I remember thinking it had been a while since I had seen that argument. Ha ha.
Beware you are close to the edge of moderator guidelines. What did I make up? When did I sneer at other people’s experiences? Please point them out for my edification.
Wrong on both counts.
My comments are considerably more nuanced than that. I invite you to read them from the beginning of this thread, so that you have a better context for my later comments. Incidentally, your attitude is precisely the reason why I entered into a debate in this thread in the first place. You are projecting all sorts of unfounded opinions onto me. This is a common feature of debate on taboo topics. Essentially my thesis is the following:
*If we lived in a society where rape was treated with less hysteria, rape victims would experience less emotional trauma. *
If we lived in a society where rape was treated with more empathy, support, and kindness, and not dismissed as overreacting, rape victims would experience less emotional trauma.
And hey, while we’re dreaming, if we lived in a society where rape didn’t exist, we wouldn’t have rape victims at all!
By the way, “hysteria” is a pretty good example of the sneering I was referring to.
If this were the proper forum, I would be very encouraging of empathy, support, and kindness for rape victims. But you are hijacking the debate. I am not in any way arguing that there shouldn’t be more empathy, support, and kindness for rape victims, just as I am not arguing that there shouldn’t be more empathy, support, and kindness for victims of other criminal acts.
Referring to a societal reaction as hysterical is not the same as “sneering at other people’s experiences.” Very different.
No, not like sex. Sex isn’t special like chocolate cake for breakfast is special, or even like your wedding day is special.
Sex is special because sex is primal. Sex is a primary drive and need. The hierarchy is:
Tier One:
The above are all absolutely necessary to sustain the life of the individual, and the drive to meet these needs overrides everything.
Tier Two:
Sex is also about survival, only instead of survival of the individual, it is absolutely necessary to sustain the survival of the species, and after Tier One is handled, Tier Two drives just about everything else we do, either directly or indirectly.
Tier Three:
Everything else, in debatable order.
So, I repeat: sex is special. Very special, so the violation of rape, being sexual in nature, is also very special. In a very bad way.
I think this is hyperbole, but I agree that sex is special. In fact, in the post you snipped, I said:
Your repeating how special sex is seems to me, well, a bit over done. Surely not everyone would agree with you (asexuals, for instance). It’s definitely biologically important. The most important. But sight and smell and hearing are also incredibly important biologically. And in a well adjusted individual, sex is not that important. In point of fact, it’s not so important that one should consider raping someone else if that is your only means of getting it. And in the modern world, other things are arguably more important. Transportation is more important in order to be functional in society, and car accidents produce terrible PTSD. The flash-backs can interfere with the ability to drive. The fear is of the worst thing imaginable – death. The experience of seeing in slow motion your coming death, seemingly inevitable and unjust, with not the slightest hope of recourse. Sex is important, but so are other things.
We’re coming from different angles, iamnotbatman. The question was about why rape is given special status by society. It’s a given that individuals experience things…individually. But society collectively understands, if not collectively agreed to as each individual’s personal truth, that sex is an extremely special category of human activity.
Now, hang on a sec. Yes, Maslow put sex as a fundamental need, low on the pyramid (and therefore high on importance.) But he didn’t do so unopposed. There’s been a ton of argument ever since the damn model came out about where sex should go and should it even be on there at all. There’s a good argument that it shouldn’t be on a pyramid of individual needs at all, and that there should be another “Pyramid of Humanity’s Needs” which would include those things that are required for social and species functioning, but not individual functioning. First of these if I were to write it would be reproduction.
Certainly asexuals and those who choose a celibate life function at higher levels on the pyramid without meeting their supposed “need” for sex first, and according to Maslow’s model, that simply can’t be done. So there’s a flaw in the model somewhere…
The newest proposed remodeling of Maslow’s pyramid that I’ve seen debated, in fact, removes sex from the bottom, but uses several similar drives to replace self-actualization on the top: mate acquisition, mate retention and parenting.
And it’s got people howling, of course.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your basic premise that most people “need” sex more than they need to write poetry. I’m just saying that you’re presenting Maslow’s Hierarchy as undisputed fact, when really it’s just one more hotly debated hypothesis.
My basic premise is not that most people need sex more than poetry, and my hierarchy was entirely mine…if it matches someone else’s that’s hardly surprising since it’s just the facts.
My basic premise is exactly what you were saying, and I clarified that in my prior post: Sex is special because it is vital for the species, and because it is vital for the species, it is an intensely powerful drive in most people, and SOCIETY COLLECTIVELY RECOGNIZES that, therefore rape is collectively recognized to be a special crime.
Taking that as a premise, I still contend that our societal taboo regarding rape is out of balance with that premise, and adds to the emotional trauma experienced by the victims.
Being told something is “a big deal” is alone enough to cause trauma.
Being told that it isn’t a big deal, when it inherently is, can be traumatic as well.
Regards,
Shodan
I am not saying it isn’t a big deal, nor am I saying people should be told it “isn’t a big deal”. Nuance, please. I’m making a point.
Then please get around to making it because all this dancing around the issue is getting a bit frustrating.