Quite frequently, you do.
I agree, and I did not say otherwise…
I gotta say, iamnotbatman, you have the patience of Job. Each answer, you never seem rattled or annoyed. You just cooly and calmly respond again and again.
What is frustrating is people drawing unwarranted inferences from what you have written.
I have have repeated my thesis multiple times. Do you disagree with it? Here it is again:
I contend that our societal taboo regarding rape is out of balance, and adds to the emotional trauma experienced by the victims.
Personally, I think this is so obvious it’s hard to believe I have to point it out. I also added:
This is a point. Do you agree or disagree? I am not at all saying rape is not a big deal. The point is that regardless of the act itself, the taboo associated with it can cause trauma. If one is interested in reducing trauma (are you?), one would consider re-adjusting the societal taboo in order to reduce the trauma. Such re-adjustment would not imply anyone would be treating rape as “not a big deal” – it would mean it would be treated on similar footing to a lot of other terrible crimes.
I would say No to that premise. While in certain situations people’s reaction to rape exacerbate the trauma, it’s relatively minor in comparison to the trauma caused by the rape. On the whole, the trauma already exists. The greater trauma is caused by people trying to marginalize the act, or blame the victim. Those reactions are far more common.
Rape victims are telling you this; do you think their testimony has any bearing here?
You are misunderstanding me (perhaps I needed to be more precise) – I am not referring to individual reaction to rape. I am referring to a societal taboo – an indoctrination from an early age that puts rape on a very high pedestal. It’s like masturbation. There is a taboo surrounding masturbation, and as a result some youngsters who “experiment” are traumatized by being found out, or feeling shame about it. Note that I am not equating the trauma surrounding masturbation with the trauma of rape. But there is a similarity that illustrates my point.
Note that I am not trying to marginalize the act or blame the victim. That paranoia and projection onto me is getting in the way of the discussion.
I disagree. Rape is given the correct amount of taboo, because it involves sex, which is important and primal and linked to very basic aspects of our physical and emotional life, and involves violence, either express or implied.
The taboo is nowhere near out of balance. Given the nature of the crime, it is correct.
As mentioned, I don’t think it is obvious at all. Far from being obvious, it is wrong.
Disagree. Being told something is “a big deal” is not enough to cause trauma. I don’t believe much, if any, of the trauma of rape is due to victims being told that it is a big deal. It is a big deal - telling them otherwise, as you seem to saying on some level we should, would be more traumatic than how it is handled today.
It is not appropriate to treat it on the level of getting a wet willie, and the notion is bizarre.
Nor will it be less traumatic to the victim to tell her that it is a crime on the same level as being punched in the face. It is not the same kind of crime.
Regards,
Shodan
This is not a very good analogy.
The only harm that comes of masturbation, I agree, is stigma. There is no particular reason to be ashamed of having masturbated, all other things being equal. This is because there is no harmful factor inherently involved in masturbation.
There is in rape.
If you are just arguing that women should not be ashamed of having been raped, then I agree with you, but not because rape is less of a big deal than society says. It is because being attacked is not a moral flaw.
If that is what you mean, fine, but it has nothing to do with whether rape is a big deal or a lesser one.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, this I very strongly agree with, unsurprisingly.
Rape IS a big deal, regardless of how society views it. You can claim it isn’t, that it’s just a taught response, but pretty much everyone else disagrees with you. What would it take to convince you that your gut feelings are wrong in this case?
As I have repeatedly said, I am not saying that rape is “not a big deal.” Have you read my comments from the beginning? Are you really going to waste my time by making me repeat myself?
Aaaaaand, there goes that cool calmness.
What is rape? Let’s consider vaginal rape, OK? Here is a definition, for argument’s sake:
A man forces his penis into a woman’s vagina.
Let me deconstruct this for you:
A man rubs a part of his flesh against a part of a woman’s flesh.
Now, obviously you are assigning some deeply significant meaning to some kinds of human flesh over other kinds of human flesh. There is a genetic component to this (reproduction), and there is also a component of societal hysteria. I agree that the genetic component is a legitimate factor. But folks, being intellectually honest, it is human flesh. Period. Full stop. I completely agree that rubbing a part of one’s flesh on someone else’s flesh in an aggressive, humiliating, painful way is wrong. It is NOT OK. EVER. It is a BIG DEAL. But taking one type of human flesh and elevating way way way above the others causes more trauma. And it’s a vicious circle. The sanctification of this flesh is self-reinforcing. It causes trauma, which causes further exceptional treatment of it. I think the stigma surrounding masturbation is actually a perfect illustration of this. The only reason kids experience trauma associated with it is societal taboo. AND AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE ONLY REASON RAPE CAUSES TRAUMA IS SOCIETAL TABOO. I AM SAYING IT IS A COMPONENT. READ. MY. WORDS. PLEASE.
It’s under control
Societal attitudes about rape are not a significant source of the trauma many rape victims feel. And that trauma would be made worse if society regarded rape as any less of a “big deal” as it does now.
As mentioned, the only societal attitude that may contribute to the trauma of rape is that which blames the victim, or which regards the victim as damaged goods.
So, I disagree with your premise.
Regards,
Shodan
Okay, but stay away from the children’s ward of the hospital. It doesn’t matter what you tell those kids – they always seem to treat getting molested like it’s some sort of special case, even if they haven’t told anyone else about it and even if it doesn’t leave physical scars!
Also, if there’s another kind of injury that can leave a woman pregnant, I’d like to hear about it.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree here. As an extreme example (not an example I am advocating, but just to illustrate my point), consider a society in which from an early age sex the vagina or anus is treated no differently from any other organ. No one wears clothes in this society. Sex is like a handshake in this society. There is no taboo surrounding sex or the vagina or anus. In this society, rape is similar to someone grabbing your hand and shaking it without your permission. Hard and painfully, perhaps, but nonetheless. Do you understand my point?
That is why early on I explicitly tried to only consider anal rape as an example. Specifically in the case of vaginal rape, I think pregnancy is the reason why it should be treated exceptionally (see post 52 for example). But anal rape is considered on the same footing as vaginal rape, and so I think it is interesting to leave the pregnancy issue aside.
You created a hypothetical where the possibility was dismissed out of hand for the sake of argument, thus robbing your hypothetical of the gravitas of the real situation.
You do the same thing here.
I do not think all rapes should be treated equally. I think they should be treated like other terrible aggressive physical assaults. Of course if you think you might be killed it would be relevant when considering the trauma/damage caused by the act.