I still say we should fence off the whole area, evacuate everybody there, and sell the damn thing to Disneyland. Let them charge admission, and if anyone screws up, they can get bounced by Pluto and Goofy. :rolleyes:
Sadly,each side,Israel and the Palestian along with the entire
Arab world hate each other to such an extent that peace at this
point will fail,as it has done for the past 55 years.It’s heading
toward a 100 years war.Both sides shall continue to bleed each
other white.Our support of Israel is costing America dearly as
well,for the Arab hates and attacks us for that support. I’m not
on ether side,I can see why the palestinian are upset,I’d be mad
if someone came to California and removed me from my home
without any fair payment,and banished me to Arizona.And I can
see the Israeli side,fight or die.Israel will continue to be a
Fortress state as it must if it is to survive.This is a classic example
religion vs. religion.What a tragic waste of lives,I think God is mad
at both sides,and this is his punishment.
Franko
Not really.
No, it was nothing near that level. The British had placed tight limits on immigration with “The White Paper” of 1939, which carried over into the post-war period. A significant number of Jews did manage to immigrate illegally in the post-war years, but nowhere near the numbers you’ve quoted - I’ve seen figures of anything from 80,000 - 120,000+.
The really massive levels of immigration occurred after independence.
Actually my understanding is that while the Ashkenazim long exerted a disproportionate influence ( I am unaware if that is still the case ), Sephardim ( i.e. Jews from the MENA and many with lineages tracing back to Iberia, hence the name ) still make up a pretty substantial proportion of Israel’s Jewish population. I imagine they are for the most part physically indistinguishable from your average Arab. For that matter some Arabs can be pretty pale. I doubt that physiognomy is the biggest issue.
- Tamerlane
I’d like to thank Tamerlane for his posts, which were, as always, impeccable. I’d like to point out, though, that nothing I said was materially untrue. I may have oversimplified the situation, and for that I apologize, but I wasn’t wrong.
I also tend to look at the current situation, and in particular the stated goals of both sides. The Israelis say they just want to live in Israel (and again, they have a legitamate claim). The leaders of outfits like Hamas and Hezbollah have stated repeatedly that they won’t stop their “operations” until every last Israeli Jew is dead and the state of Israel is destroyed.
Given that, I have not choice but to support the Israelis. I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror otherwise.
Bull. While the Jews certainly did buy up lots of land, in 1948 they only had bought up about 375,000 acres of land. Which is only about 6% of the territory in question. In any given Palestinian district, Jews only owned around 39% of the land (Jaffa) to less than 1% in places like Ramallah or Nablus.
Bull again. While some areas aren’t worthless desert anymore thanks to Jewish agriculture policies, a whole lot of Israel was already pretty fertile. Palestine had a thriving citrus and olive industry going before 1948.
The people who want their land back aren’t the ones who sold it to the Jews. They’re the people who were forced off their land due to war, etc. The people who sold their land don’t have a claim under right of return.
Yeah, no kidding you don’t get it.
Perhaps the reason why you don’t get it is you don’t know much about the present conflict or it’s history. As Neurotik said before the start of the 1948 war Jewish settlers only had 6% of the land, the Arabs had about 60% and the rest was owned by the British government. Also the first Jewish (zionist) settlement started about 1890 but you don’t start to see large numbers coming in into the start of the British Mandate. Current Israel is much bigger than either the UN or the Balfour declaration ever intended it to be.
The wall cut’s the Palestinians off from most of the land in the West Bank and also is intended to seal them off from there eastern border, it is also built almost entirely within the Green line and cuts-off entire Arab villages. It’s a simple land-grab.
Btw Israel was not a desret, it contained areas of desert and still does, but it has always contained some of the best arable land in the middle-east.
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Despite the fact that it is my policy to always side with the jew in any argument (statistically speaking, it’s safer long-term). I am going to have to call you on that one. There are many israelis, both in and out of their goverment, who feel the same way inversely. They don’t just want the 'pre-‘67’ Isreal, they want ‘every inch of land they tread on in the Exodus from egypt.’ At least, that is what ‘god’ promised them.
Claiming that selfishness is one-sided in this conflict is like claiming that smoking is good for you.
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I think you missed the point. The fence isn’t just ‘protecting a border’. It is also advancing that border into areas that the Israeli government agreed belonged to palestine. I.E. they encroach into pre-'67 territory. I am all for Israel protecting itself from terrorism; but this isn’t ‘just a fence’.
And yet, according to the latest polls, some 80% of the Israeli population supports the construction of the fence, which means that they support at least some measure of withdrawal. The “Whole Israel” crowd may be vocal, but they’re a distinct minority.
There’s nothing holy about the 1967 “border”. After all, it’s just the 1949 ceasefire line between Israel and Jordan. It was drawn by war, and it can be redrawn the same way. Frankly, I find the Arab obsession with it inductive of their unwillingness to compromise.
The relevant UN Security Council resolution(s) direct ALL countries to withdraw from territory and ensure secure borders for EVERYBODY.
Two critical, and often blatantly ignored, points:
First, the resolutions are addressed at all the countries, not just Israel.
Second, even in 1967 the UN recognized that Israel would have to keep some of the won territory as a buffer against the other countries.
Egypt can attack Israel only by crossing a large desert, which is hard on ground troops.
Jordan and Syria have to cross a river valley and a mountain region, respectively, which therefore need to be aggressively patrolled.
The Palestinians can just walk right across the border. Hence the need for a high-security fence. (Or do you propose that America dismantle our really, really tall fence at the San Diego - Tijuana border???)
Where did the UN do this in 1967? UN Resolution 242 calls for
The Arab nations could point to the first paragraph which Israel didn’t fulfill, and the Israelis could point to the second paragraph which the Arabs didn’t fulfill. The UN never recognized that Israel would have to keep territory as a buffer.
The question of who is right and who is wrong is at this point is moot. At the point where you begin blowing up buses and killing children and babies you deserve nothing. I think the only way to end the terrorist attacks would be a one for one war. You kill one of our civilians we kill one of yours. If Hamas and other such organizations want a war, then try killing those involved in the war. Not mothers on the way to market with their children.
I saw where thousands of Palestine’s took to the streets in protest of the killing of the Hamas leader. What kind of people protest that? That man was responsible for the death and misery of many Israeli civilians, and more than likely civilians from other countries as well. I say kill another terrorist leader and when people pour out in the streets to protest…kill them as well.
I know this is hardly an enlightened look at the world, but if I had to pick I would rather have a State that didn’t support people who kill children and babies.
btw, I do know that Israel is not innocent in all this mess but until I see where Israel is deliberately targeting children, I will back them.
Yes. Really.
I 100% support the right of Israel to exist and live in peace, but I think the Palestinians have a legitimate beef, and that Israel is on the verge of becoming some sort of apartheid state, which I clearly can’t support. But then Hamas or Islamic Jihad turns around and pulls another damned suicide bombing, which is one of the most loathesome tactics in the history of warfare! It makes me so damned mad, and I don’t even have a dog in this fight! I can only imagine how it makes the Israelis feel. Well, no I guess I don’t have to imagine–I still have that September 11 rage in my belly.
The whole situation stinks, and it’s dragging the rest of the world into conflict along with it.
What about making the Old City a UN protectorate? Everybody owns it, and everybody can visit and practice their religion in peace,a nd nobody can change anything. Would that help take one burr out from under the collective saddle?
Um, that’s actually the current situation in the Old City. The Muslims control the holy Muslim sites, the Christians control their sites and the Jews (and the Israeli government) control the rest of Jerusalem. Mosques and churches are open and everyone is free to practice. (Unlike in the 1948-67 days…)
Zev Steinhardt
Good rebuttal. But you’re wrong. Jewish-Arab hostility has been going on for less than a century. Previously, they were relatively tolerant of one another.
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I never said that ‘All Jews’ fealt that way, or even the majority. I simply said ‘many’. Which, if your numbers are correct, is wholly accurate, as 20% of 13 million is over 2 million people. I would classify that as ‘many’.
Don’t get snarky, I wasn’t saying that Israel is wrong, merely that painting them as ‘all wanting peace’ while painting ‘all palestinians/arabs as wanting israel completely destroyed’ as the post I was responding to was suggesting is both misleading and detrimental to the cause of peace.
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Except that the Israeli government aggreed to adhere to it, then turned around and built a wall around settlements that encroached on it, while condemning palestinians for not sticking to their end of the bargain. If that doesn’t stink of hypocracy to you, perhaps you should take a step back and re-look at things.
Again, I am not trying to suggest that Israel is the bad guy, or that they are ‘more bad’ (if there is such a thing in a conflict this bloody) than the palestinians; I am merely trying to suggest that both sides need to get off their damned high-horses and admit that they both have done wrong, own up to it, quit cher bitchin, and FREAKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
They agreed to pull back to '67 borders, afaik this doesn’t mean toe the '67 lines exactly. Especially since the security concerns about the borders were noted when passing that resolution.
A top story on CNN.com now:
You have to win US public support for that sort of thing, Mr. Rabbo. Good luck.
There’s only one solution:
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Israel must invade the Palestinian territories.
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Israel must jail and/or execute all terrorist militants.
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The army must be employed to enforce security and curfews.
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Establish something like the “Recovery of Samaria and Gaza Fund” to aid reconstruction efforts in the West Bank.
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Israel must rebuilt Palestinian cities using the RSGF (Israel’s got enough problems of its own to use its own money) - erecting obvious reminders that Israel’s doing the rebuilding, so the people won’t forget again.
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Shut down all financial institutions and have all banking go through a state-controlled and -supervised bank network. All terrorist accounts must be frozen and assets transfered to RSGF (see point 4).
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Tell the Arabs - “This is the way it is. Get used to it.” Integrate the Arabs into Israeli society - by force if necessary - and reopen all borders to permit Jewish and Muslim societies to interact, intermingle, and coexist. Permit the Arabs to have a voice in the Knesset.
The rule here is - the only things the people will comprehend are an iron fist and a big stick.
Why? Because the Arabs want nothing but the eradication of Israel. That’s what Hamas is aiming for, and what the Palestinian youth are being brainwashed with. Even if a Palestinian state were to come into being, it would only be a matter of time before it turns into a harbor for terrorist activity against Israel. So, no Palestinian State. Develop the areas, improve their standard of living, grant them their rights, and they should be happy in Israel.
(I know I’m so going to be Pitted for this. But oh well.)
WRS
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The Jewish population of Israel is some 5 million. I don’t know where you got that 13 from.
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Those 20% disagree with the fence for a variety of reasons, not just nationalism. Many disagree for the same reason you do. After all, unlike the Palestininas, Israel has a left wing.
Cite? Where did they agree to adhere to a full withdrawal? At most, some administration agreed to perhaps discuss it in some future date. OTOH, the PA promised to dismantle Hamas.
So no, no hypocracy. At least not from this end.