Why doesn't Israel do something along these lines...

[stick_monkey]

**

[quote]

1. The Jewish population of Israel is some 5 million. I don’t know where you got that 13 from.

2. Those 20% disagree with the fence for a variety of reasons, not just nationalism. Many disagree for the same reason you do. After all, unlike the Palestininas, Israel has a left wing.

[quote]
**

to statement #1. I mistakingly quoted the estimated world population of jews, which according to jewfaq is somewhere between 13 and 14 million. You are correct, the Israeli population is around 5 million. However it doesn’t invalidate my statement, as I (and I would assume most people) would classify 1 million people (20% of 5m) as still being ‘many’.

to statement #2. We appear to be discussing the price of tea in china, as saying 20% disagree with the fence is not the same as saying 20% think israel should control all the ‘holy lands’. I should have clarified that in my first response. However, whether or not they support the fence does not invalidate the statement that…

There are many israelis, both in and out of their goverment, who feel the same way inversely. They don’t just want the 'pre-‘67’ Isreal, they want ‘every inch of land they tread on in the Exodus from egypt.’ At least, that is what ‘god’ promised them

I have no problem accepting that they are just a vocal minority. I was merely positing that Israel is not the bastion of love and morality; and that palistine/arabia not the bastion of selfish greed that was panted in the post I was responding to.

**

Cite? Where did they agree to adhere to a full withdrawal? At most, some administration agreed to perhaps discuss it in some future date. OTOH, the PA promised to dismantle Hamas.

So no, no hypocracy. At least not from this end.**

From The Road Map to Peace.

GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.

<snip> Emphasis Mine<snip>

As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.

<snip>

Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.

<snip>

GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.
Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).

The israeli government specifically pushed construction of the wall to areas surrounding several of their newer outposts. And they appearantly did just as good a job lifting the curfew and dismantling settlements as the PA did with Hamas.

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

*Originally posted by Tamerlane *
The really massive levels of immigration occurred after independence.

Tamerlane: thank you. Is it possible to quantify the immigration numbers of “foreign Jews” into Israel after 1948, and during what periods they took place in?

Also, and this my understanding which is quite willing to stand corrected, but I’ve read that after the end of the 1948 war, that many Jews who had hitherto lived quite peacefully in neighbouring Arab countries were forcefully deported against their wills INTO Israel. I’ve read numbers as high 700,000 people over a 10 year period after 1948.

If this last claim is true, was that not a form of “ethnic cleansing” within those neighbouring Arab countries? And if so, why isn’t more fuss made about it? Such a thing strikes me as being thoroughly deplorable. (As is, it should be noted, so many of the things which have gone down in the Middle East in the last 50 years).

[Tamerlane]

Exgineer - Well, the biggest issue, as other posters have pointed out, was displacement in the partition of 1948. Some from an unwillingness to submit to Jewish rule, some because Arab propaganda terrified them into fleeing, some just fleeing the fighting in general, some ( a minority it is pretty likely, but just how much of one is hotly disputed ) chivvied out by Jewish extremists. For the majority, there was probably really very little informed choice in the matter.

My problem with the right of return, is that it really isn’t feasible at this point. I still strongly think a compromise that involves a token return ( of those few thousands of elderly with provable claims still alive from that period ), plus financial considerations ( which let’s face it, will be necessary anyway to help prop up the economically moribund Palestinian areas - just give it a politic name ) is a good idea.

WeRSauron: The problem with your scenario, even beyond the extremeness of it ( which I don’t support - a retroactive withdrawl and building a wall isn’t the greatest idea, but it’s a lot better than your proposal IMHO ), is that Israel itself will not grant citizenship to all of the Palestinians, because it would compromise the whole nature of the Jewish state ( unless you instituted an entirely undemocratic second-class, non-voting status for Arabs ).

*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo *
Is it possible to quantify the immigration numbers of “foreign Jews” into Israel after 1948, and during what periods they took place in?

With the caveat that all the following numbers are liable to dispute:

Israel’s own estimate of Jewish population pre-partition in 1948 - Maybe 650,000 ( overwhelmingly Ashkenazim, I believe )

Immigration 1948-1951 - est. at 684,000. Maybe 300,000 from Eastern Europe. Maybe another 300,000 1948-52 from Sephardic areas ( 120,000 from Iraq, 55,000 from Turkey, 40,000 from Iran, 55,000 from Yemen, 10,000 from Egypt, plus other smaller groups ).

Late 1950’s after Sinai campaign - Further 400,000 Sephardic Jews predominately from North Africa and Egypt. By 1961 Sephardic Jews made up maybe 45% of Jewish population.

1970’s - 150,000 from Soviet Union

1980’s and '90’s - Maybe another 800,000 from U.S.S.R. to become a very dominant group demographically ( shifting demographic balance back strongly towards the Ashkenazim again )

Also, and this my understanding which is quite willing to stand corrected, but I’ve read that after the end of the 1948 war, that many Jews who had hitherto lived quite peacefully in neighbouring Arab countries were forcefully deported against their wills INTO Israel. I’ve read numbers as high 700,000 people over a 10 year period after 1948.

If the above is correct that might be close. Not all were forced or harassed out, but many, many were, I’m sure ( I have no exact breakdown immediately at hand ).

If this last claim is true, was that not a form of “ethnic cleansing” within those neighbouring Arab countries?

I’d say so.

And if so, why isn’t more fuss made about it? Such a thing strikes me as being thoroughly deplorable.

Hang out in these conversations long enough and someone is sure to make a fuss about it ;). Rightfully so, of course.

• Tamerlane

[ccwaterback]

Wouldn’t it be nice if the Jews just said, ahhh to hell with it, and packed up their belongings and all moved to America? I believe 99 percent of the Mideast “problems” would be over in that scenario. That’s what I do when I have neighbors that make my life miserable, I move. I can see in principle, yes, the Jews do belong where they are, but don’t have just an ounce of practicality in their heads? Anyway, flame on.

… and I think to myself, what a wonderful world …