OK, what if I promise to spend the money on children? Would it be OK then?
A Peraves Ecomobile, whatever that is, is not a person. It is not a human being who will suffer greatly without a home. It will not grow up and contribute to society as opposed to being a homeless addict.
I thought this would be an intelligent and well reasoned debate about an issue that I actually care about. I guess that is not possible. Instead people have to show that they can shit a thread. I am facinated.
But, to the OP. Foster care to adoption is not always workable. Since we began the process become registered to foster, I have been to Korea for a year, been to Iraq for a year, and been working crazy long hours. Granted, my home life is not ideal to bring a child into, but there are many people who have the same type of home life that I do that have children. Hell, one of the reasons I am still in the Army is so we could get enough money to adopt a pair of twins. I re-enlisted in Iraq to get the bonus money to be able to afford to adopt. Lawyer fees were paid, paperwork was filed and paid for, and the mother decided she did not want to give the babies to my wife and myself, she wanted her brother to hold these two as he did the other four she already had. This woman believed that someday she would get off the crack and meth and be able to get back to school and take care of her kids someday. So I lost several thousand dollars on this adoption attempt. I can’t get the money back in tax credits, and this was our only real shot at adopting. So I plan to be childless even though we really want children. If it was fully subsidized, we would have another chance. So, I buy my lottery ticket every week and wonder could this be the one that will allow us to have kids.
So, I don’t want a minivan, or whatever the fuck it was that someone upthread was whining about how the government should give things to him/her. I would like to have a chance to have a complete family. That is why I favor subsidized adoption.
SSG Schwartz
Not trying to be snide, genuine question: why should the government subsidize private adoptions but not subsidize day care for working parents?
Umm, no. Note that the Op wants a healthy (and white?) baby. They are snapped up in the USA, so he wants to go overseas and get one- and have the government (that is- you and me) to pay for it.
Now, “special needs” adoptions are subsidized to an extent. I’d even agree they could be subsidized more. But US taxpayers do not save anything by a US Citizen adopting a kid from Uzbekistan, in fact it could be argued that it costs us a bit.
In relation to children who are already in the care of the state, the overriding principle is to act in the best interests of the child. It does seem to be, on the face of it, in the best interests of children in care to open up the possibility of adoption, and allow a full exploration of the question of whether a specific adoption is in their best interests. If there is any evidence that the availability of prospective adoptive parents is limited by the financial costs of the adoption process (and my expectation is that this evidence will be readily obtainable) then there seems to be a very strong argument for removing the financial barriers to adoption. (Plus, as the OP points out, funding the adoption process may cost the state less than continuing to have the child in its care.)
The issue is less clear-cut in relation to the adoption of who are not in the care of the state. If, to take an example, a mother has a child for the specific purpose of having it adopted by someone else – a surrogate parenting arrangement – is there any compelling reason why the adoption part of this deal should be funded by the state?
Cubsfan doesn’t say anything about adopting a healthy baby, much less a white baby. Nor does he say that he wants to adopt from overseas; he gives the cost example of an overseas adoption, but the arguments he gives (governments saving on support of the child, avoiding social problemes later) make it clear that he is mainly talking about domestic adoption.
Thank you. I was wondering if he actually read my post or just skimmed it. I never thought anyone could so badly misunderstand a post.
Hijackers please start another thread.
[GQ]Why is it so expensive? Fees to orphanariums? Hiring private attorneys to fill out the paperwork? Background checks? Bribes to shady characters in dark allies?[/GQ]
As a datapoint/anecdote, both my kids are adopted from South Korea. It wasn’t anywhere near $60K for both of them put together. Of course, this was twenty years ago.
Just off the top of my head, the fees covered
[ul][li]The cost of filing the paperwork with the SK government, including having them translated to and from Korean[/li][li]the cost of the paperwork with the adopting agency here in the US (Children’s Home Society, as it happens)[/li][li]The cost of the paperwork with the Korean agency (Eastern Child Welfare)[/li][li]The cost of the home studies. A social worker comes to your house and sees the place, interviews you and your spouse, and generally checks to see if you have the resources to raise a child. It doesn’t have to be lavish.[/li][li]The cost of the background checks - credit check, criminal background check, etc.[/li][li]The airfare and accommodations to fly someone to South Korea, pick up the child, and bring him/her back to the US.[/ul]Adoption costs were not tax-deductible when we did it, but I believe they are now. [/li]
My kids were both healthy and non-white. My son was about five months old when he arrived; my daughter about four months.
I have no idea what a private adoption would cost. I imagine the lawyers’ fees, and the cost of supporting the birth mother and providing health care during pregnancy covers most of it.
Should the government subsidize it? Dunno - how much do you consider the government subsidizes giving birth?
Regards,
Shodan
Or any other kid-related expense?
To those who think I’m thread-shitting–this thread was shit from word one. The OP has an unexamined attitude of “I want it, it’s expensive, I can maybe make some half-assed argument that I’m benefiting all taxpayers–BAM! The government should pay for it.” That is ridiculous.
Adoptive parent here. International adoption in our case, but now that we have been in the “adoption community” for a few years, I know a lot of adoptiive families.
The answer to your questions are yes, yes, yes and yes.
A lot of the adoption process gets very close to illegal behavior or is outright illegal. Lots of intermediaries are brought in to put some distance between the principals.
We went through the China program, and (this is a few years ago) we paid out about $4500 to various officials or “guides” in China (and I mean literally over the desk and through the payment windows) and came back with receipts for about $600. That was after we had paid out many times that stateside to attorneys and social workers. My wife happens to be Chinese. The agency folks kept reassuring us parents that cash payments are simply the way things are done in China and there was nothing underhanded about what was going on. We knew this was not true (checks and bank drafts are the standard way to do business there nowadays, especially for amounts like these)
The background check was the easiest and cheapest thing.
Even stateside, I think our social worker might have passed us if I had sat through the inteview drooling and drinking up a fifth of scotch. They are selected and paid by the adoption agencies, and like home inspectors and appraisers selected by real estate agents, they know that if they “torpedo the deal” they are going to get blacklisted. And it is a great gig. A couple of interviews, a three page write up (90% boilerplate) and collect $2000.
Even the doctors/parameds doing the physicals are very careful to qualify you. I can tell you that I haven’t weighed the amount reported on my physical since 1999. I didn’t ask the paramed to fudge it, and based on the stated limits there was no need to. But she already knew what numbers the “Chinese want to see”.
Our daugher is the best thing that has happened to me, but the process is something I try to forget.
Another data point.
One of my co-workers spent over $200k on three failed domestic adoption attempts. Twice the birth mother decided to go with some other parents (and was collecting money for “expenses” from at least two prospective adoptive parents) and the third time the mother supposedly decided to keep the baby (for all we know she had another set of adoptive parents lined up, and just didn’t want to say)
She finally went through the Gautemalan program, about $60k for two kids (not related, but born two days apart) just before the Gautaemalan program was shut down. I am sure I am going to get slammed for this but the Gautemalan program was pretty much a “born-to-order” program. The number of kids being adopted by American and Canadian families was staggering compared with the size of the Gautemalan population. In 2006 more than 1% of all children born in Gautemala were adopted as infants by Americans alone.
To respond to the OP, I would hate for the government to get involved in this, even to the extent of financing it.
My wife and I adopted a baby domestically two years ago through a private agency (Spence-Chapin for those who are interested). They offered a sliding scale for payment so it would be affordable for all income levels. All told, we spent about $12,000 in the process, of which we got back about $10,000 in tax breaks.
In which case it was vastly cheaper than actually birthing the baby yourselves.
I don’t think anyone in this thread has spoken out in favor of the government reimbursing those who adopt foreign children.
What we need are some hard facts in here. What is the typical cost for a domestic adoption? How many baby adoptions occur annually? How many children are stuck in the adoption pipeline?
I would have thought this would be a given, though judging by the responses in this thread I’m not sure, but I think it’s in society’s best interest that orphans be matched up with families willing to care for them rather than under the care of private or government run organizations. I don’t see anything controversial in this position. Thus, if certain barriers hinder the satisfaction of this interest, they should be examined. Cost would seem to be a major barrier.
Thanks for posting this. This looks like a great agency.
Just wanted to post what the costs/procedures are like on the Canadian side in case any canucks out there are reading this. This is for Ontario.
My husband and I are currently trying to find our children and have not adopted yet (but we hope to get the call any day now).
- Public Adoption
Children available through public adoption (i.e. whose parents legal rights have been terminated by the courts) are free to adopt in Ontario.
Downsides:
-You are unlikely to get a newborn or baby. (This could be an upside…)
-You don’t know when a child will be matched with you (this is a 'don’t call us, we’ll call you situation, they are trying to find parents for the children not children for the parents).
-The transition period from their foster home is fast (a few weeks for babies, a few months for older children). This requires great understanding from your employer since you will want to take parental leave.
-If you wait for Children’s Aid to do all your background, you could be waiting a long time if you live in an affluent region (though you have the option to pay for this yourself and have it done privately, we did this to speed up the process).
2. Private Domestic Adoption
This is typically a pregnant woman looking for parents for their unborn child. This will cost anywhere from 15k to 25k. You are typically taking the baby home from the hospital.
Downsides:
-You never know when you are going to get chosen. Could be tomorrow. Could be five years from now. Could be never.
-There is a 30 day waiting period after the baby is born in which the mother or father could change their mind and keep the baby.
- International Adoption
There are many great programs in Ontario. Some sample countries are: Ethiopia, China, Ukraine or Russia. Cost is anywhere from 25k (Ethiopia) to 50k (Russia). There is usually a fairly fixed timeframe (i.e. you sign up today and can expect to be travelling to the country in x months give or take six months).
Downsides:
-The child will not be a baby (likely 18-24 months) as they try to adopt them within country before making them available to other countries.
-Cost.
We are trying to do public adoption right now. We can afford the international but would rather put the money into a college fund for our children. We also aren’t keen on a newborn and would like to adopt siblings so public is the best place to find that.
If anyone is going through this right now and wants to pick my brain or commisserate, feel free to PM me.
So, cost in Ontario to adopt anyhwere from 0 to 50k. I know I am Canadian so you will probably think I am a socialist anyway but good people who can afford to raise a child should be able to adopt, even if they can’t raise up any upfront capital. (Keep in mind that we have free health care so the natural route is free, too.)
You did say you did not want to adopt a special needs child. And you used overseas adoption as an example of how expensive it is, you know that domestic adoptions are not that expensive.
As far as subsidizing the cost of domestic adoptions, all the healthy non-special needs babies are adopted as fast as they are available. Thus, they are not going to become wards of the state and become an expense.
I know nothing about adopting children, but I know something about adopting pets (work with me for a second), and I know that one of the cardinal rules of pet adoptions is that you do not make the pets free. There MUST be a barrier to adoption and it MUST be high enough that people don’t do it on a lark or view the animal as disposable.
I would think that would be doubly important in the case of children.