Why DON'T you believe in a god?

I guess I’ll take a stab at this . . .

I was raised in a household where ‘reality’ was subject to entirely different interpretations from one week to the next (mental illness in family). Sifting through the many conflicting messages in search of some stability taught me to think critically, and accept only what could be tested and proven.

Any faith or belief in any kind of ‘God’ was destroyed after I was sexually abused for several years by a Sunday School teacher. I did go ‘looking for God’ - for about a year I begged, pleaded, and prayed for some sign or indication that a greater being existed and every bad thing that happened served a purpose as part of a greater plan. I never received an answer - not even that nice warm, comforting feeling I hear so many people mention. If there is a ‘God’ of any sort that wants my attention, worship, and/or belief, he missed his chance to gain it a long, long time ago.

At the same time I was also learning about the ‘real’ world, as revealed and explained by science. I began looking for simple, logical explanations for everything in existence - and I found them. Everything fits and works together perfectly because it has to - otherwise the universe wouldn’t exist. There are no mysteries that require a supernatural explanation, only knowledge we have not discovered yet.

The universe makes perfect sense just as it is; adding some omnipotent being or ‘God’ in order to explain the universe or our existence creates nothing but confusion, and stifles the pursuit of knowledge that eases and illuminates our lives. ‘God’ is an unnecessary complication in a perfectly sensible universe.

“The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.”
~Richard Dawkins"

I find this thought comforting, because I know I can expect the universe to continue functioning in accordance with its own principles, and I can base my life, my decisions, and my future on this unalterable reality.

Frankly, the notion that some omnipotent being might suddenly decide to ‘stir the pot’ both annoys and frightens me. If there is a ‘God’, then there is no security in the universe, and our fates are all in the hands of some unfathomable being who may decide to destroy everything on a whim.

Terrifying.

(Tried to post this before the crash, hope the conversation hasn’t turned in other directions!)

Now that I’ve caught up on my reading . . .

Wow, Cervaise - you said it so much better!

LIBERTARIAN: Thank you.

CERVAISE: You’re a film critic?!?

Thanks everyone–so-far–for avoiding The Way of The Flame.

Personally I was raised in a fairly non religious family. My mother was a non practicing Christian and my father was nothing. I think he was just bitter about relgion in itself and so refused to have any part of it. It wasn’t enough for me to simply not believe. So I looked into is as I was growing up. I read, researched and talked to people.
Nothing pointed me toward the existance of God. Not a single thing. Most people I spoke to really did not understand their own religion, they simply regurgiated whatever their pastor had taught them without thinking about it. I found it hard to have any debate because they really had no idea of what they were talking about. I heard a lot of "But God said"s and a lot of "It’s in the Bible"s but as soon as I asked them to show me where, they had no idea. The pastor could have told them that Moses was a Martian from the planet Znarg that had a mounted chain gun and karate chop action and they would not question it for a second. I thought it was incredibly foolish to blindly believe something because you were told to. Most gave a bad name to their religion because they said completely ignorant things like the Bible mentions dinosaurs and says that the Euro will bring about the end of the world…
For me it wasn’t a easy decision to become an atheist. I don’t like being looked down on by the so called “enlightened” people who really have no idea what they stand for. The Big Bang, science and evolution all make sense to me. I think about them and they just click.
However a entity that created all of us for no reason, that is all loving yet vengeful, that is all powerful but needs our praise just does not compute.
I really wonder why there are still religions out there. I don’t know why people just cannot accept we evolved and the universe just was. It seems odd that people cling to old disproven ideals even after there is evidence that they are wrong. I hope one day we come to a time where people don’t fear damnation and are simply good to each other for no reason, I wish that people could stop passing judgement on people because they believe that they came from another source. I have no doubt that we will come to a point our society when science is accepted and religion is the subject for study. I can vividly imagine people off in 2140 reading through a digital Bible saying “People actually believed this stuff?”
That is why I don’t believe.

From this thread:

I realized that FCism is really a demon-worshipping cult. The demon in question is Azathoth, the gibbering, tentacled idiot-child at the center of the universe, squirming to the shrill pipings of his misshapen servitors, periodically lashing out to destroy just because he can.

Mind you, this isn’t immediately apparent, because FC’s cloak their beliefs in so many layers of self-deception.

Layer #1 is that God loves you, and FC’s know that God is real because they can feel his loving presence. I never felt that, so that layer of deception was stripped away from me. It’s called the “glitch effect.” We see it stripped away all the time in GD. Once you tell an FC that you experience the glitch effect, we move to…

Layer #2: any attempt to make FCism make sense, and explain why it’s perfectly just to send nonchristians to hell. Of course, these arguments don’t make sense. I knew they didn’t make sense, so that layer was stripped from me. It just didn’t make sense to me that my nonchristian friends would be sent to hell just because they had an honest, but incorrect, opinion on a matter of historical trivia. This is a matter of little concern to most FC’s, since, after all, they’re not the ones who will get BF’ed with a broken bottle for eternity. But they do love you. Did I mention that? Anyway, in GD we periodically strip away that layer too, since it’s childishly easy to overturn FC arguments.

Layer #3: maybe it doesn’t make sense, but God is so far above our level that we can’t understand his justice. Nonetheless, God clearly stated his plan in the Bible (or the genome proves that Jesus is God, or whatever) and if you just listen, you’ll know how to escape hell, even if you don’t understand why things work that way. Being a devout Christian, I read the Bible intensively and saw that Christianity simply isn’t based in the Bible. It just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. So that layer was stripped from me, too. We strip it away here in GD, too. So often when you argue an FC into a corner, when they realize that their arguments just aren’t holding up to the nonchristian assault, they reveal…

The Ultimate Truth: God doesn’t have to make sense. His plan doesn’t have to be just. He doesn’t have to make His warnings convincing, or even make them coherent. God has the ability to send you to hell, and he will do so if you don’t bow to him. None of your fancy arguments will matter in hell. The fact that the Bible doesn’t add up won’t matter in hell. All that matters is that God is powerful enough to send you there.
And there you have it. A being so powerful that he can lash out in destruction for whatever reason he wishes, without having to make sense, without having to be just. Azathoth, the Demon Sultan, idiot-child at the center of the universe.

Mind you, even when FC’s tell you that all your fancy arguments won’t do you any good in hell, they still are getting the warm fuzzies from their brain glands. As far as they’re concerned, Jesus is still the loving, pastel soft-focus hippie. They don’t have to live with the ultimate truth.

But me? I didn’t get the warm fuzzies. Hell for unbelievers didn’t seem just. The Bible didn’t add up for me. But fundamentalist Christianity is a cult, and they had me brainwashed. I had to keep believing. You see, it didn’t matter whether I could feel God’s presence. It didn’t matter that it didn’t make sense. It didn’t matter that the Bible didn’t support it. All that mattered was that might makes right. God can send you to hell, and he is under no compunction to give you any good reason to believe. You are the created, and he is the creator, and he will do as he pleases.

So, you see, I was stuck for quite some time there believing that Azathoth (whom the fundamentalists call by the name “Jesus”) really did run an amoral, meaningless, nonsensical universe powered by blind might and naked fear.

Strange, isn’t it? FC’s keep saying that atheists are the ones who believe in an amoral, nonsensical universe. But then again, they’re masters of doublespeak.

Cervaise wrote:

A man could not ask for a more empathetic understanding. Is it any wonder that I hold you in such high regard? We might not choose to build a house on one another’s mountaintop, but I love visiting your house and I leave mine always open to you.

A basic outline for the convincing explanation for quasars

Since most of my interaction with religion has been with Christianity, a lot of the time when I refer to God, I’m speaking of the Christian one. Essentially though, my arguments work against all religious beliefs.

The first reason that I did not believe in God was a rather simple one, that I formulated all by myself at around 7 years old.

Given that heaven is often depicted (I don’t think I used the word depicted) as being in the sky, and we’ve sent rocket ships through the sky to the moon, surely they should have run into heaven somewhere along the way?

It was a reasonable question given my interaction with Christianity at the time (i.e a simplistic, childish level) and it was probably that which made me doubt the whole thing.

I was, unfortunately, Christian (as much as a little kid can be) in the first few years of my schooling for the simple reason that it got taught in school, and my experience is the best reason I can give for not teaching religion in school.

Due to Australian schools not having the First Amendment to protect them from religion, in NSW public schools the government has allowed a certain amount of time each week for members of the local religious community (always Christians) to conduct classes proselytising the students. Of course I believed when I started Kindergarten - how could I not? You went to school and learnt that 2+2 is 4, and that you write a k like so, and that Jesus died on the cross for you and healed lepers and blind guys all over the place. If you question one, why not the other?

Well, being of above average intelligence led to me questioning our scripture classes, (not to mention that God didn’t do anything to get me out of an undeserved detention when I asked him to), so rocketships and the failure of prayer ended things for me - the latter is still a convincing argument as far as I’m concerned.

From then on I never wished to go to scripture again, and my parents were fine with that, them not being religious either (I still don’t like the word atheist - it feels like I’m defining myself as something opposite to other people, when really I feel more like I just don’t bother with religion). Going to religion classes and the few times I attended church services just made me feel intellectually and morally dishonest.

Unfortunately, while I didn’t go to religion class anymore, everyone else did. And this is not because it was a Christian school - Australia is a rather secular place - but kids given the option between having to specifically get their parents permission to opt out from religion and stand out from everyone else or just attend a weekly scripture class, it’s fairly obvious they’ll take the easy route. So I was made to be very obviously seperate from everyone else, and it did make me an excellent target for the few serious Christians in the school, who then felt it was their duty to convert me and wouldn’t let up on it.

Eventually I got to high school where religious classes weren’t run during school time and I wasn’t conspiciously different. I got to know active Christians as people who actually did believe in their faith other than by default and didn’t go around pushing it on other people, and this helped me get over the dislike that I’d developed for the religious.

(Sorry to go on a bit, but to explain why I’m an atheist requires explanation of how I came to be one, I feel, and I needed to provide context to explain that.)

Today, I can’t really point to any one thing that leads to me deciding that god doesn’t exist. Having been an athesist for so long and paradoxically living in a secular society while still having to conspiciously define myself as an atheism means that it’s just a part of life for me. Everything I see suggests that there can be no god, from the lack of proof of its existence to features of religion that suggest it is man-made.

Religion bears all the hallmarks of something created by society rather than something that created society. Of course religion is artificial - you ever noticed how the people that decide that the Christian God is the one for them tend to live in overwhelmingly Christian countries, while the same can be said for the followers of other faiths? Or how its place in society changes according to the knowledge of the society? Once religion explained thunder, then it explained who was a witch and who wasn’t, and now it explains whether two men should be having sex or not. If religion was independent of society, if it was the word of God, then what was once true should still hold now. We should still be calling people witches and saying that thunder is made by God. We shouldn’t have explained some parts of the Bible as myth and story because it turned out that they couldn’t be true.

If the Bible is the word of God, I don’t see how anyone could possibly pick and choose. How can one say “God meant this, but not this,” without tacitly acknowledging that religion and God are man-made concepts?

And of course, religion always seems so restrictive - you’ve got to do this, not do that, go here then, eat that, wear this - why would any god care? And the rules are always so absolute. They don’t allow for personal circumstances or variations. I think it’s a better idea to listen to myself rather than get my life philosophy out of some two thousand year old book (that tells me I can keep slaves under certain conditions).

I also entirely reject the idea that it cannot ever be proven that god doesn’t exist. I understand that god and religion are two different things, but they are closely related, and throughout human history we have been proving that God doesn’t exist. Once, the sun was a god driving a chariot across the sky. We proved that wrong, and God became redefined as something else. Darwin’s theory of Evolution came along and showed that certain elements of God weren’t true, so people redefined their beliefs to accomodate this. When it’s proven that certain aspects of God are wrong, God is redefined to fit in with those aspects. God is our creation, and it’s no wonder that the God people believe in today isn’t the same as the one of the Old Testament or even the New Testament. If we were to ever gain the knowledge to prove people’s current conception of God wrong, then people would simply redefine God to allow that he could still exist.

Well, there you are. It’s bits of “why I don’t believe,” although it doesn’t touch on the most important aspect, which is that there is no reason to believe, anymore than I should believe that a being is producing the voices in the head of a schizophrenic.

It’s by no means meant to be a proof, and it’s a bit rambling due to it being late at night, but I hope it gives you some insight.

I once read somewhere a South American religious story telling of how the group of people were warned of a great flood by a talking llama. I mightn’t be a religious guy, but that is cool (and it illustrates what you are saying).

[Fixed quote tags. – MEB]

A talking llama. Heh.

I must say, you’re one of the more tasteful decorators in your neighborhood.

I was thinking about this discussion last night, and it occurred to me that one of the reasons my posts were so long is that I can’t really talk about this stuff anywhere else. I read, and observe, and synthesize, but I have to keep virtually all of my musings inside. Nobody but nobody knows I’m an atheist. Not the folks in my workplace, not my family, not my friends. Only my wife and the folks on this message board know my true beliefs. The President of the freakin’ country is free to proselytize from his public pulpit, but if I’m open about my atheism, I risk becoming a target. (Example: I love my cat, and I don’t want to see it get killed. Google for “atheist” and “harassment” for an endless parade of ostensibly loving Christians cruelly abusing their non-religious neighbors.) So I keep this stuff bottled up, and on the rare occasions when I take out the cork, it tends to flow freely.

Because, sadly, this is a subject that is almost impossible to discuss dispassionately. An atheist simply cannot defend his position without simultaneously coming across as attacking the faith of a believer. When I say I think that these deities have basically been invented to fill in the gaps of what is not yet understood, when I give the example of, say, lightning, which primitive peoples in their ignorance of large-scale electrical phenomenon automatically ascribe to supernatural powers by psychological default, it’s only natural for the believer to bristle and respond, Are you calling me primitive and ignorant?

When the subject comes up in casual conversation, I don’t talk about it. If I’m asked, I’ll say that my spiritual beliefs are my own business, that I don’t think it’ll be a productive conversation, and that it’ll be better for everyone if we change the subject. I have no problem debunking Ouija boards or the moon-landing “hoax” in a social situation, partly because those beliefs are stupid and it’s not only easy but IMHO necessary to demolish them, but mostly because people don’t structure their lives around them and I won’t start a fistfight by taking them apart.

My atheism is different. If I were to respond to the typical inquiry by rattling off all or even part of what I said above at a party or a family function, I’d fully expect a cluster of so-called Christians to ambush me afterwards with physical violence. I’ve barely managed to avoid such confrontations in the past, and have learned to keep my mouth shut. Yes, I would take some comfort in knowing that said intolerant toads are extremely poor representatives of their faith, but it would be small comfort indeed as I retreated to nurse my injuries.

It’s too bad that it has to be this way, but it is, in fact, the way it is right now, and I see little likelihood of change in the future. So, outside of this online forum, I remain a fully closeted atheist.

I’m becoming more and more amazed at how pious our world and society have become. Thinking that just because they don’t believe in something or have never seen it justifies that it doesnt exist. I live a fairly simple life and have never claimed to be very smart,but just because i have never been to China or seen China doesnt make me deny its existence. I believe and have faith that those that have seen it are telling the truth. The same applies to God, believing is based on faith and faith alone.
Reading these post i think there is a HUGE misconception about why certain things happen. When God created the world everything was perfect, no illness, war, or death. It was Satan or the Devil (whom i have not heard any blame laid upon) who introduced sin, deception,illness, and death into the world. It was man (created with a free will not created as a non-thinking robot) who chose to be deceived and therefore separated from fellowship with God. Although God is powerful enough to over come the evil of Satan, he allows it because that is the path man chose by his free will. God is a loving but God is also Just. The debt for sin has been paid for believers but just as a speeding ticket stays on your record after it is paid and you won’t go to jail one must still live with the consequences of the action. Thus man must live in an imperfect world, even believers.
Those who have encountered christians that in there eyes do not act like Christians need to understand that being a believer doesn’t mean you are perfect but forgiven. Christians still sin because we are human. The key element being not to use Christianity as a license to sin because of the forgiveness. If a person claims to be a believer yet has no remorse for sin there is most likely a problem. The Bible states that narrow is the way and not many will find it and that many will claim to be believers but are not. Walking into a church or living a good life does not make one a believer anymore than sleeping in a barn or wandering in a pasture makes one a cow!
I’m sorry for the length of this or if this isnt the right forum to state these opinions but sometimes i think opinions of God often start off with misconceptions thus breeding more of them. I really feel for those who have had bad experiences by those they believed to be Christians but if you can grasp the fact that there is no evil in God but rather Satan and lay the blame on him, maybe some opinions might change. As for trying to explain or scientifically prove God, it’s impossible. He is much above our comprehension. Our wisdom and brillance is as foolishness to him.

WRENCHHEAD:

Though you are not, obviously, talking about why you DON’T believe in God, I’ll take your contribution to this thread as a positive one, in the sense that you are challenging nontheists to be precise about what it is they don’t believe in.

Folks, what is this “God” or “god(s)” that you conclude is nonexistent? Is it that particular idea you reject, or are you rejecting, in a more general sense, “religion”? (There are nontheistic religions.)

In what sense?

Wow, I am shocked.
Such places still exist in the West???
You should seriously think about moving.

They exist even in The Last Frontier. Trust me on this.

I have seen the same things Cervaise mentions (not having a cat killed, but becoming the “target”, as it were, of people I can only describe as militant theists.)

Much like some who have posted in this and other religious-themed threads, they’re often not interested in “why” you don’t believe, they’re just interested in essentially “saving you at all costs”. (That’s almost a verbatim quote told to me. A phrase that immediately brought to mind the old “We had to burn the village in order to save it”.)

That’s… an interesting interpretation. Sounded to me he [or she] was saying non-believers are all under some “misconception” of how the universe works.

Apparently he missed the earlier post that pointed out how ironic it is when you presume God is “above our comprehension”, while at the same time pointing out our theological misconceptions. Rather condescending, if you ask me, though I’d be forgiving and not assume it was intended as such.

Belief in God as defined by the Bible doesn’t fit my usual requirements for believing in things I don’t experience first hand, i.e., substantiated evidence from a credible, unbiased source. If you want to define God as ‘things we don’t know’, then I’ll be happy to believe in God.

I was very specific about what I don’t believe in: a wishful-thinking device for papering over the gaps of whatever we don’t yet understand. I took WRENCHEAD’s post as typical firehose witnessing, i.e. spraying everyone in view with The Good News without acknowledging the preceding discussion that establishes quite clearly why I cannot believe in the Christian God any more than I can believe in Hermes the Fleet-Footed Messenger.

America: Love it, or grit your teeth and love it. No country on earth has a monopoly on small-minded reactionary dopes; nor is any country free of them. To judge and categorize one another from our respective “us vs. them” fortresses is one of the unifying qualities of humanity.

Not to tweak Lib any further, but that’s his new favorite link. And he does have a point, in fact. To point out that “A > B, A = false, ergo B = false” is not a valid syllogism is merely to underline the fact that none of this stuff can be logically proven in any meaningful sense. Some people do fall into that trap and claim more than they have actually demonstrated. Of course, in his enthusiasm, Lib tends to overapply the principle where it doesn’t quite fit. My own reasoning chain tends to look more like this: “B relies on A, but A is clearly suspect, so B cannot be supported.” Quite a different animal. Lib also occasionally falls victim to another classic reasoning error, to wit, to point out that “A > B, A = false, ergo B = false” is invalid does not automatically make B true.

But that’s what happens, to all of us, when we attempt to discuss a subject that by its very nature resists logical treatment but that we have strong feelings about nevertheless.

To be fair, I have also often called people of faith to task for their most popular fallacy, affirmation of the consequent.

Incidentally, “B relies on A” (I’ve never quite seen that exact terminology in K) looks suspiciously like B <- A (which is equivalent to A -> B).

An excellent point. One of the big problems in these discussions is that neither side clearly defines what they mean by “God.” Even within Christianity, that attributes of the fundamentalist Baptist’s God seem quite different from those of the Catholic’s God.

I range all the way from strong atheism w.r.t to the fundamentalist’s God (since that the world did not begin in 6 days 6007 years ago is about as well demonstrated as anything) to a simple lack of belief in belief in a theistic god (since this god has no interaction with us anyway) to a lack of belief in a very large number of gods I’ve never heard of.

Many nontheistic religions make claims about reality that do not seem to be borne out by evidence. Seeing no evidence of a soul, I have a hard time buying reincarnation, for instance.

If you define religion as a set of ethics which you must accept because God, the Buddha, or a bunch of forest sprites say so, then I don’t buy
any religion.