Why DON'T you believe in a god?

Great Debates
121

I am an athiest. Plain and simple, I believe there is no god.

Although I was not always this way. I guess I always questioned it as a child,

but was always yelled at and punished by my catholic school teachers for

questioning it, and was also made fun of and beat up by the other kids for it.

I was not confirmed in grade 8, as all the other kids were, and they thought I

was an idiot for it. Like “how dare he question christianity?”. Although I

must admit, the teacher I had at the time loved me for it. She was a cool

teacher.

Anyways, so I go into high school, still always questioning the existance, but

not really ‘coming out’ of the athiest closet. Only once in a while saying to

friends things like "Ya know, the belief of the existance of god seems kinda

STUPID to me… etc etc…". But then the brainwashing of school, once again

(yes even in high school) would force the idea into my head that anyone who

doesn’t believe in christian faith is WRONG and is a BAD PERSON, who will rot

in hell for eternity. Well, I got into college, never really thought about it

much, kinda considered myself agnostic, although I really hadn’t formed much

beliefs other than that I didn’t care.

Well, about 2 weeks after I was an official college grad, my dad passed away.

This pretty much forced me to start thinking about god and whether he exists or

not, etc etc. One of the things my dad had gotten into very recently before he

passed away, was “praying”, he wrote it down in a book. Basically what it

turned out to be was a journal, with all his thoughts etc. Not like he was a

big religious guy or anything, because he was always the “black sheep” of the

family. Anyways, that’s not why I don’t believe in god, it just got me

thinking and kept me thinking. Enough about my personal history and ranting

about what made me start thinking about the existance of god.

I know what you’re all thinking. "He’s just bitter with god because his father

died". Well, no, that’s not true. As a computer programmer, I think straight

logic. The existance of god to me is completely illogical. The whole reason

the whole thought of a god started in the first place, was to explain unknown

phenomenon, and this was hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of years ago.

People used to think that “gods” caused it to rain, snow, be sunny, be windy.

And they thought disasters were all “punishment” from god (ie: The Noah’s ark

story). Well, all those “theories” have been disproven by science. The only

thing that religion explains as being something god did, that science cannot

prove (yet) is creation. And lets be logical here, noone was around to witness

that, and over billions and billions of years, it becomes really hard to find

evidence of how the earth was formed. But there are a lot of scientific

theories that make a HELL of a lot more sense than “god created us”. I’m not

talking about the story of genisis. That was obviously just a story, noone in

their right mind would argue that. I’m talking about the general idea that god

created the universe. To me, it’s obviously an outdated theory about as

malarky as saying the earth is flat.

Anyways, there’s my rant. I would like to start talking about how stupid the

idea of Jesus being some kind of miracle worker is, and how much he reminds me

of that guy from Waco, Texas. David Koresh. I mean really, most of those

bible stories were written by his nutty followers. Of course they’re all gonna

talk him up. But I think I’ve written enough today.

122

PS - sorry about the new line characters, not sure what happened there.

123

My comments were not intended to be condesending or otherwise taken in a negative way and previous comments were taken into consideration. The same “firehose” i used is the same one that anyone else who posts a comment on here uses but from a different point of view. But is in most conversations of this nature only one side is free of criticism when spreading their message. Both sides have the same basic principles in these messages, 1. Supreme being (God or Man) and 2. Why we are only accountable to that supreme being. Having said this i have just two questions to pose. The first, in your opinion what should God be? Should he only be a fire escape from hell? someone who heals all? or someone to run to in time of crisis or need? If he was any or all of these things to you what would you give him in return? From my experiences these are what people expect from God if he exist but are reluctant to give him anything of themselves. The second question is if he did give indecernable, scientific, measureable proof of his existence would it really be enough for you to believe? Biblical Jews, God’s chosen people, were constantly shown great miracles and signs, delivered miraculously from enemies and danger, but still they had periods of rebellion against God. Even one of Christ followers betrayed him after physically seeing him and the many miracles he did. What would make us any different? This is why he has chosen to make himself know to us in the Bible, but that is where faith steps in. If you dont believe it is true it does no good.

[Fixed quote tag. – MEB]

124

—Folks, what is this “God” or “god(s)” that you conclude is nonexistent?—

I don’t conclude they are non-existent, and so have no need to define any specific list of gods I don’t believe in. I simply examine my head, and find that there are no “believe in god” statements for anything traditionally asserted a “god.” I lack anything I can identify as a “god belief.”

Let me clarify with some uncommonly cited wrinkles. Some people believed that Caesar was a god, and worshiped him. I think that Caesar existed (with as fairly a high degree of certainty as I can give to any ancient history), and I agree that he was their god. However, Caesar is not my god.

Some people think all-that-exists is a god, one which they relate to on a personal level. I agree that all-that-exists exists. I agree that all-that-exists is their god. But it isn’t my god.

Interestingly, however, if you examined my metaphorical head and the head of a person who worships all-that-exists, I bet you’d have a very hard time distinguishing our two heads aside from the different use of semantics in regards to the description of all-that-exists.

125

Well, I’d suppose that the “God” or “god(s)” that we’re concluding are nonexistant are:

  1. sentient entities, who
  2. exist outside the scope of commonly obervable reality, and
  3. have some influence over us/the ‘real’ world.

I can’t speak for anybody else, but gods that are mindless, normal, or irrelevant don’t seem particularly interesting.

Incidentally, I’m non-theistic because the evidence is underwhelming (except for the uncaused cause thing, which is not resolved by any god anyway), the gods described are not entities that I wish to give allegience (or more often, servitude) to, and because most religious folk seem to turn into vapid illigical persons when asked to participate in theological arguments (ie: they refuse to intelligently discuss their own beliefs).

126

Well, you walk into a thread where atheists are explaining why they, personally, don’t believe in God. Some of their arguments have been good-naturedly challenged, and equally good-naturedly defended. Some of them may make sense to you, some may not.

Now, the way I, personally, interpreted your original post in this thread was that you told people to believe in god, blame the devil, and not see people who “live a good life and go to church” as representative of Christians. How does this have anything to do with the arguments presented by a specific poster, or your personal reasons for believing what you believe in?

No one else here has told people what to do with their beliefs. They have asked questions, pointed out flaws, but not told people “do this, do that, and everything will make sense”. That, I believe, was the firehose referred to.

127

—because most religious folk seem to turn into vapid illigical persons when asked to participate in theological arguments (ie: they refuse to intelligently discuss their own beliefs).—

What does the particular character of believers have to do with the validity of their beliefs (unless they happen to be beliefs that doing such and such, which they’ve done, will necessarily make them more logical and intelligent?)

128

I’m just now catching up with this thread, but Lib and Cervaise, let me tell you that reading your posts has made my day. I yearn for a world in which good people of differing philosophies sit down and discuss their outlook - eager to both understand and be understood, as opposed to this hateful posturing we so often sink into.

Thanks guys. Like I said, you made my day.

129

Well, to be a debate there must be opposing sides or it would be a soapbox. I would also reason if the forum where name “why do you believe in God” there would be some opposing opinions posted in that forum be people who don’t believe also.
[Fixed quote tags. – MEB]

130

Why must there be a supreme being - either man or god? I don’t think there is any god, and even a man supreme in one characteristic may be not supreme in another. Given that, I don’t feel I’m accountable to any man - but accountable in different ways to many different groups. We all have these dilemmas, and we all decide them in different ways. Who is the ultimate judge? We’ve got to decide, and, being imperfect, we may get it wrong.

Or, these stories might have been written as a way to keep the people in line. “You’d better believe or He’ll get you.” Notice how all this so-called proof either happened a very long time ago, before records were kept, or have no independent supporting evidence. My ancestors lived in Israel in 32 CE, and if they noticed earthquakes, the sky darkening, or graves opening no one ever saw fit to write it down.

What is god for? A just-so story (you have to work because your ancestor screwed up) or a way of keeping people in line.

131

? Was that last paren referring to me ? Whatever.

Besides the various minor concerns that their ignorance might be catching (heh heh), The primary reasoning is held within the last half of that complaint: “they refuse to intelligently discuss their own beliefs”. Much of the time religion is something of a team sport, an exersize in community and all that; I personally find it dissatisfying that it is difficult to hold a discussion about the nuances of religion with a ‘religious’ person without offending them. (This is in my own experience obviously.) As we’re speaking on the subject of why I don’t believe in “God”, I don’t see that “nobody will discuss their own perecptions of God intelligently (logically) with me” is an invalid reason.

132

Well, if there are specific points of logic you’d like to dispute, I’m sure you could find a debate in here somewhere. Take a look at Lib, for instance.

True, indeed. Ever hear of the “You Too” fallacy? :slight_smile:

Before people start ripping you apart too badly (or vice versa), allow me to point out that many of the people posting here see no logical reason whatsoever to believe in hell, Satan, heaven, or God. I, personally, think it’s far more likely the conventional Christian construct is a historical fiction. So really, you’ll find it quite difficult (if not impossible) to convince this particular audience with any line of argument that assumes God’s existence as a necessary condition for our own. (Even if you use some sort of “everything is God” definition, I’m not going to find that particularly useful.)

Of course, if you’re not trying to convince anyone, that’s fine too… but that did seem to be the purpose of your first post.

Do you see where I’m coming from? By the same token, I’d have about as much chance at success in convincing you that your faith is pointless as I would running into a milk-producers convention and yelling, “Milk is murder!”

Welcome to the SDMB.

133

You know, Cervaise… I think I know just how you feel.

I’m pretty lucky to have known a number of open-minded Christians in my life, one of whom was a pretty good friend and colleague. He and I would get into discussions which had much the same tenor as the exchanges between yourself and Libertarian in this thread; good-natured discussions of differing beliefs, viewpoints, perspectives and opinions. We each ended such discussions with a healthy respect for the other, and a newly-affirmed strength in out own beliefs (or lack thereof).

I’ve come to treasure such exchanges, because they are rare indeed, for some of the reasons you mentioned.

In my own life, I find myself being ever-increasingly challenged by my mother (she always seems to come up in these discussions). I know she loves me, and I know that her gentle pressure to share her faith is put on me in the name of love, and I try hard not to resent it for that reason. And yet, though it hurts me that she seems to want to “convert” me, I can’t bring myself to tell her that I don’t share her belief, and I probably never will. I would love to have the sort of exchange John and I used to have with her, but I feel sure that my beliefs would hurt her. I don’t think that she’d attack me in return, but I don’t feel the need to hurt her just to make my opinion known. That’s saying something, too – I can be a pretty opinionated guy.

There are others I feel the same way about… even if they wouldn’t attack me or get angry with me, they’d be hurt because I don’t share their belief. There is something about the Christian faith, for some believers, that makes it necessary for everyone to believe in it. Is it a need for support? Validation? I honestly don’t know. But since faith is such a closely-held facet of the human psyche, I honestly don’t feel the need to get in someone’s face and challenge their faith unless I’m sure it’s going to be received as its meant: a genuine interest in the feelings of others, and in sharing my own feelings. I’m not out to convince anyone that my way is The Right Way, and I hope they’re not out to try the same on me.

I’ve had some friends who understand this well, but they have been few and far between. With most of my friends, and almost all of my relatives, I remain a “closet agnostic.” I just choose not to talk of my faith unless I feel sure that we’re on equal terms. It makes me sad, sometimes, because it means that with some people, like my mother, I can’t talk about things that I might otherwise find very rewarding. But as you say, that’s the reality of it. And worse, sometimes.

And Cervaise… I wasn’t going to say anything because I try to avoid “me too” posts, but your first post in this thread is a wonder. You expressed it all so eloquently and so well, I may well have to borrow some of what you said for later. Hope you don’t mind. :slight_smile:

Libertarian, you mentioned the fact that you and Cervaise had apparently reviewed the same data and come to very different conclusions. That concept, in a nutshell, repeated over and over from individual to individual and from culture to culture, is why I do not believe in a set deity or deities. When people, as individuals or as groups, can look at the same fact and create completely different scenarios surrounding its existence or behavior, then I simply cannot believe in a universal truth or morality, which is a cornerstone of most religious faiths. I respect your beliefs a great deal, and I think they can co-exist with mine quite peacefully, despite the fact that they’re very different. I only wish there were more of you out there. :slight_smile:

134

I don’t believe in god for the same reasons I don’t believe in the eatster bunny, santa clause or the tooth fairy…
he is not real.

If you had never heard of god and some guy walked up to you on the street and you had a conversation that went something like this:

Guy on street: "So this guy, god, he told me that (insert something here)

You: "God? who is he?

Guy on street: “This guy, who lives up there (he points to the sky)”

You: “Lives up there? (you point too) What does he look like?”

Guy on street: “Don’t know, all I know is he tells me (insert something here) and then everything will be alright and I will go to heaven”

You: “Heaven?”

Guy on street: "Yeah, where he is, up there (the guy points to the sky again) Where everyone I love will go when they die, providing they (insert something here)

At this point I would be inquiring about the nearest mental hospital and if he had ever resided there.

Sometime ago I had a theory that religion was something made up by the politicians so you would leave the house and they could bug your house and do other stuff they don’t want you knowing about.

Something that I tell people when talking about god:
If he watches everything you do what do you think he is doing when you are taking a shower?

my two bits

135

Bluegreen Isis, with all due respect, that’s a very interesting point you make, but it has about as much relevance to the serious allegations made about their God by theists as does someone explaining to The Bad Astronomer, that the Moon is not made of green cheese, so he should stop studying it.

You’re more than welcome to argue against the existence of God, a god, gods in general, or anything else you care to object to – but would you kindly get some sort of grasp about what people on the other side mean before you make an utter fool of yourself?

Yes, it’s obvious that people who go to Somalia to nurse malnutritioned children because they think that God is calling them to do this, and Fr. Mychal Judge OFM who was killed while trying to take care of a wounded firefighter on 9/11, are out to attempt to exercise political control over you through a God myth.

:rolleyes:

136

Look Prollycrap you’re mistaking Isis’ post I think and being pretty damn rude about it.

One of the problems I have with relgious belief is that so much of it is obvious crap. Believers tend not to see this, but much of religious belief is so stupid that it’s hard not to insult it when describing it honestly. Face it, Christianity, Islam and Judaism were all dreamed up by a bunch of wacked-out, supersitious, butt-ignorant desert nomads 2,000 years ago and they read like the sort of stuff you might expect from people who think mass murder, rape and slavery are all OK, and whose idea of criminal justice is horrific tortures like scourging.

137

Christ, people, can’t you behave yourselves?

138

[Moderator Hat: ON]

Evil Captor said:

Besides the fact that making fun of somebody’s name isn’t exactly the greatest debating technique in the world, doing so in such a way as to essentially call somebody “crap” is also against the rules.

You want to debate? Good. You want to call names? Then you’re in the wrong place.

David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

139

Gee, I was simply sharing a theory I once had…it wasn’t MEANT to go along with everything else being said other than having a GENERAL relation to it. (as sometimes happens in message boards)

You can always tell who the people are who feel their beliefs are being threatened in some way, they get so testy…

meowwwww
“Face it, Christianity, Islam and Judaism were all dreamed up by a bunch of wacked-out, supersitious, butt-ignorant desert nomads 2,000 years ago”

You forgot about the plethora of opium they had available to smoke

140

I’m testy because for three years I’ve been willing to debate my stance in favor of a reasoned, nuanced belief in a Supreme Being with whom one can have a relationship and who tends to manifest Himself to individuals in subjective, not-easily-reproducible-in-experiment ways, and every few weeks somebody comes in and calls my line of thinking a bunch of crap, because what they got told by some jerkwater fundamentalist (apologies to the thoughtful fundies. here!) who insists on unthinking acceptance of his interpretation of selected Biblical quotes is something they reject, so therefore every person who has any belief in God must therefore be a blithering idiot too.

Tell you what, Isis and Captor: given that you have made assertions in your posts just above, produce evidence to prove them. Specifically:

[ul][li]… so much of [religious belief] is obvious crap.[/li][li] much of religious belief is so stupid that it’s hard not to insult it when describing it honestly.[/li][li]Christianity, Islam and Judaism were all dreamed up by a bunch of wacked-out, supersitious, butt-ignorant desert nomads 2,000 years ago. (Hint: there are three factual errors in this sentence as written; separate out the parts and you might have defendable theses.)[/li][li][Christianity, Islam and Judaism] read like the sort of stuff you might expect from people who think mass murder, rape and slavery are all OK, and whose idea of criminal justice is horrific tortures like scourging.[/li][li]Sometime ago I had a theory that religion was something made up by the politicians so you would leave the house and they could bug your house and do other stuff they don’t want you knowing about. (Yes, that’s your theory – but give evidence to support it. You do know the difference between theory and hypothesis, don’t you, and how to turn the latter into the former?)[/li][li]You forgot about the plethora of opium they [the “bunch of wacked-out, supersitious, butt-ignorant desert nomads” who dreamed up Christianity, Judaism, and Islam] had available to smoke.[/ul][/li]
I eagerly await some cites supporting these facts.

Oh, and Isis?…

You don’t threaten my beliefs in any way. What made me “testy” is having my dignity as a thinking human being egregiously insulted by being lumped into a group you were prepared to mischaracterize in a fictional dialogue and then make snide remarks about. Simple as that. You want to hold a non-theistic view of existence? Fine by me; you can be a thoughtful, moral, decent person doing so, as many of my friends here are. You want to do offensive stereotypes? You deserve no better than do Fred Phelps, Falwell, Robertson, Wildmon, Farrakhan, and other vendors of false generalizations.