Why don't you idiots calm down?

The BBQ Pit
261

Aries28, that’s the way it’s supposed to be done. However, our not-too-bright friend Vanilla, (who has now confused politics with religion (see her stupid little comment on athiests and communists)), is under the impression that if she keeps repeating how wrong she was to have an abortion, maybe she can reverse the sin.

She can’t.

If god lets her slide on that, he’d have to let Jeffrey Dahmer slide on his murders. He’d have to let John Gacy slide on his murders. He’d have to let all those evil muslims slide on 9/11.

She cannot separate what she did from what any of them did. She’s fucked.

And speaking of fucked, maybe she ought to think about getting a little of the ol’ in ‘n’ out one of these days. She might lighten up on the fire and brimstone a little.

“Blah, blah, blah. I’m saved, you’re not. My abortion doesn’t count anymore because I’m a born again blatherer.” You are tiresome.

262

I don’t understand christians. I have tried but I just don’t understand them. Thet believe they have figured out the way to live and to “live again”, that’s cool. I can understand they feel the need to share it with others.

What I can’t understand is how they believe that constantly telling someone they are wrong will somehow make them realise they need to discover “God”

I am an athiest. I firmly believe “god” is something humans constructed to make life more tolerable. I have never been unkind to someone who thought differently to me. I was on the mormons “must visit” list for about 3 years (such sweet wee American-bike-riding chaps they were). I never slammed a door. I chatted and asked after their health. I escaped when I moved. I wouldn’t be rude to them, I was bought up better then that. I wouldn’t care if muslims, buddhists, jews, christians…whoever showed up on my doorstep. Thay don’t get inside but I won’t be rude.

I just don’t understand if they are already “saved” why the fuck care if I am?

I don’t stalk churches on Sundays telling people they are deluded. Why must they tell me I am?

I am firmly of the belief that we all have the right to worship whoever the fuck we want to (or no damn bastard, my personal choice). Why do religous types feel the urge to share?

Of course this is a generalisation. My son’s best friend comes from a baptist family. I have attended Xmas plays with them because I was politely invited. …because I respect the family I never declined the invitation and no one tried to “convert” me.

NZ does not have the strident obsession with church not being part of state. We have “Bible in schools” (not all schools…schools can opt out) it is a quaint relic of the past. Schools can have it or not have it and choose to set boundaries around it. It “officialy” doesn’t happen during school hours…not taught by teachers but church volunteers and school doesn’t start officaly till half an hour later that day (one day a week).

At my son’s first school “bible in schools” started at 5. One day after school he said “Mum did you know god started the world”
I replied “Yes some people think that”
He said “Do you?”
I said “No but you can if you want”
He replied “You are wrong mum”

No more bible in school for him. No matter how much good they think they are doing NO ONE tells my 5 year old child that his mum is wrong.

His second school “bible in schools” didn’t appear till he was 9. The choice was his. He went twice then opted out. I put no pressure on him either way. I gladly pay for him to attend a craft-get together-listen-to-some-bible-crap every friday night. I want him to make his own decision. I just don’t want him to be preached to against his will…this is something he enjoys.

I would have to live in a cave if I hadn’t heard of christianity. If I fancied it I would have looked into it.

Let jesus, mohhamed…whoever save you, thats cool. Just let me be. If i want you i will let you know.

263

True. However, when I say that I want to love God with all my heart, soul and mind then that encompasses that I naturally will strive not to do things that displease him. Of course, I fail…daily…hourly…etc. If my faith is sincere and real then I will do the other things…the “works”…(ie go to church, help others, tithe, witness) not as a part of what I believe is necessary to attain salvation but because I want to please God. (That doesn’t quite explain it I don’t think but it’s all I’ve got right now) :slight_smile:

Kalhoun I really do see where you are coming from. I can’t say that I agree but I get why you feel the way you do. I do agree she can’t separate any sin she has committed from those you mentioned or anything I’ve ever done in my life or the worst murdering SOB in the world has done. I fully believe there is no level to sin.

And I must admit I struggle daily wondering if someone could pop up on their deathbed and ask for forgiveness after living a wicked life and acheive salvation when others who are good people and try to live a good life might not. It doesn’t make sense. I only have to trust that if I follow what Jesus outlined as the 2 greatest commandments that I’m doing what I need to do. God knows hearts…I can’t take it upon myself to condemn anyone or exalt anyone on Earth and I won’t do that. I don’t believe I have ever told someone “I’m going to heaven and you aren’t blah.blah.blah.” I tend to shy away from witnessing in the sense that I tell everybody else how to live their lives. Like I said earlier, I hope that my witness is how I live my own.

calm kiwi I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don’t think constantly telling someone they are wrong will ever lead them to discover God. We all do have the right to worship whoever we want or not to worship at all. I respect that tremendously.

I think some religious types feel the need to share because it does give them a superiority complex. “I’ve got something you don’t have…I’m better than you…I’m going to tell you how to do things…etc.” I firmly believe though that some mean it all in the spirit of love. They share because they are concerned or they love. I can’t fault those people as long as they accept that if someone isn’t interested then you let it go. You don’t judge. You don’t condemn.

I heard an older pastor once say something that has always stuck with me for some reason…

“If I’m wrong in my beliefs then it matters not one bit. I’ll die and be buried and that will be the end. But…if I’m right…it makes all the difference in the world.”

I really hope I don’t come across as preachy…that isn’t my intent at all. Like I’ve mentioned this is why I never visit Great Debates or involve myself in most religious threads. But when I see someone claim to be a Christian then acts in exact opposition to what that should entail it bothers me tremendously. These “Christians” do more harm than they ever do good. I fully believe God weeps at some of the things done in His name.

264

You don’t come off as preachy at all Aries that was very sweet and obviously heartfelt. (I mean this genuinely) Your god would be proud of you. That is what I tried to tell Vanilla earlier…you catch nore flies with honey.

I’m not caught, but I really enjoy your opinions and the fact that you appreciate my opinions are not automatically crap because we don’t share a belief.

Good on you! :slight_smile:

265

As one who has been around the SDMB forever, I remember the entire drama quite clearly. You are either a liar have a bad case of selected memory.

In all the time I have known you, I have watched others shape and mold you. The person you are is dependent on the current influence. You even admit as much when you talk about putting on a false front in order to fit in on the SDMB.

Do I think you are a hateful, judgmental fundie? Probably not, but I do think you are a weak, brainless twit who can’t think for herself. As soon as something else comes along that catches your eye you will be grabbing on. It is people like you who get snagged up by the David Koreshes and the Jim Jones’, I don’t think you even know who you are.

266

Aries, you sound like you have a good head and a good heart. We definitely need more of your brand of religion around here.

Do you believe that someone who spends their life not believing in christianity, but who lives a good life, basically following the tenets of christiantity without actually being a christian (like many of our athiest/agnostic members here), will go to heaven if it turns out there IS a heaven?

No offense intended, so I hope you don’t take it that way…but this sounds a little bit like you believe “just in case.” Am I reading you correctly?

267

I think that is exactly what was meant. Aries has a sweet and much more appropriate way of talking to the unconverted.

Religion (IMHO) is all about covering your butt. Just in case there is a firey hell, better be safe then sorry.

Aries just has a nice way of putting it. I appreciate her for that :slight_smile:

268

Calm Kiwi, I think that’s basically it as well (though I’d like to hear from Aries). However, if the christian religion, as it is presented by many here, is real, it doesn’t really matter if you’re good or bad…Jesus already paid everyone’s tab and everyone will go to heaven regardless. It just doesn’t add up to me. 'course, I’m a skeptical agnostic with veeeery strong athiest leanings, so…

269

Ooops bad butting in me.

Jesus, mohammed etc will forgive me when I cark it though :smiley:

270

CJ,

Wow. You tell a powerful and sad story. It touched me deep down, partially because it almost sounds like a bit of my own life. I’m very glad that you found something that makes you feel better about yourself, but it’s apparent that you still have a long way to go.

For one thing, realize this: Those people who so long ago told you that you don’t belong? They were fucking morons. Every last one of them. They were dead wrong, and they should be ashamed. But you know what? They still have a hold on you. In some part, you still believe them. Babe, you gotta let go of that past. It’s obviously still got you in chains, and is still poisoning you.

You belong. You have self-worth. It’s yours for the taking. It’s your birthright.

But you don’t need me to tell you that. Neither do you need some invisible magic sky pixie. You have to come to it yourself. You are ultimately on your own, although there is a wealth of help out there if you need it.

You probably won’t believe me, but I sincerely hope you do. Send me an e-mail at tneal@partners.org if you want to talk.

271

It’s called Pascal’s Wager, and we’ve torn it apart many times in the past. But if it works for you, then more power to ya, darlin’.

272

Okay…here we go.

I differentiate between what I personally believe and hold to be true in my heart and what I think every other single person under the sun should believe.

I respect everybody’s right to believe how they see fit for themselves or not to believe in any higher power at all.

I’m not trying to start a religious debate. I won’t fight about my beliefs. But you deserve a response from me and I’ll give it to you. I respect you both too much to ignore your questions.

I, personally, believe in the concept of salvation. I base this on my belief in the Bible where Jesus says he is the only way to the Father. I believe in order to attain salvation one must accept that Christ is the son of God, that he was crucified and rose again and that there is an afterlife spent in either heaven or hell.

I don’t believe how you specifically worship is what keeps you from heaven. I believe there are Catholics and Jews that I will see in heaven. I believe there are homosexuals I will see in heaven. I believe there are members of my own family that I love more than life itself that I will not see.

I believe in the forgiveness aspect from sin. I have committed many sins and will continue to do so. It’s in my human nature. I was created this way by the God I believe in. I don’t think being a Christian gives me a pass to just go out and do anything I want then ask for forgiveness and all is well. There are and always will be consequences to my actions…either in this life or the next. I will be judged…by God…not by anyone earthly. I don’t answer to anyone on earth just as I don’t judge anyone on earth (or at least I try my damnest not to).

God loved some really sinful people. Moses. David. People that committed murder. Adultery. He loved them even in their imperfection.

I don’t personally use my religion as a type of fire insurance if you will. That’s me though. I fully have faith. However, I am not closed minded enough to think that my belief is the only true thing. Or that my way is the only way. God knows hearts. He might surprise me. I might see lots of people that I personally didn’t think were saved that God knew their heart. It isn’t my place to condemn anyone. It does matter if I’m bad or good. (Cause Santa is watching…oh, wait…nevermind)… :wink:

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this but I did want to give at least one perspective of a Christian who isn’t off her rocker. :slight_smile:

At least I hope that is what I’ve done.

273

You are good people :slight_smile:

You explained yourself in a way that didn’t offend anyone else and yet didn’t back down from what you believe. That is to be commended :slight_smile:

274

If I may butt in for a moment … ? As belladonna noted, I’m a Protestant … more specifically, a Broad Church/latitudinarian style Protestant … and I think what we’re talking about, here, is technically referred to as the Doctrine of Universal Salvation. (Which has been explicitly denied by [Low Church/Evangelical/Fundamentalist vanilla, but which makes a lot of sense to me … )

The basic idea is: God is all-powerful and all-loving, so how can He allow people to go to Hell for all eternity? Answer: He doesn’t. Being all-powerful, He can arrange things so that everyone is saved. No matter what they’ve done, no matter what they believe, God forgives them all and will welcome them all into heaven.

(Question: does this not make a mockery of the doctrine of free will? Partial answer: Heaven is whatever’s fundamentally right for you as an individual … one person’s heaven may be another’s hell; God will provide appropriate afterlife accomodation, as required. [“In my father’s house, there are many mansions” and all that.])

Personally, I find this idea appealing on many levels. The spoiled-brat version of God, who treats us all as playthings to be broken and burned for eternity at His whim, is not any sort of supreme being I could respect … I believe in the Creation as, firstly and solely, an act of love, and God as someone who loves us and wants the best for us, and can see that we get it. And, if we’re all going to heaven no matter what, the whole incentive/reward thing is a nonsense … which means that we don’t do good in this world in the hopes of reward in the next - we do good in this world just because that’s the right thing to do. It seems to me that that’s something a Christian should aspire to. It’s supposed to be about unselfish love, isn’t it? - the love that God gives freely to us, we give back freely to Him, and to each other.

My opinion only. I’m not a priest, or a theologian, or even a particularly good Christian, and I could well be completely wrong about all of this.

275

Not at all.

I have total respect for those who are dedicated to their beliefs yet are able to respect the beliefs of others. I’m agnostic/atheist, but if I were to believe in a God, I’d like to think that he would be the type of God who commands nonjudgmental acceptance of others as opposed to the hateful intolerance bullshit.

vanilla – Not that I have any plans to change MY beliefs, but you and your ilk has a zero percent chance of ever winning me over to your hateful cult.

276

Aries, if that works for you, then you’re way ahead of the game, but as long as we’re sharing personal viewpoints, I might as well bore you with mine. :wink:

Bah. I don’t think we need salvation, as I don’t believe in original sin. I think that that concept was made up by Da Man to keep people in line. I have no use for that crap. I also have no use for a made-up 2000 year old myth to save me. I’d rather rely on my own strengths to pull my own ass out of the fire. And I’d rather put my faith in the here and now and in myself than in some made-up Hey-Seuss dude who claimed he had all the answers.

It’s very liberating.You should try it sometime.

/obnoxious opinion

277

Of course it isn’t. The SOURCE SHE IS QUOTING is what’s being judgemental, not her.

And is there any room for interpretation of “no one comes to the Father, but through me”? I don’t see any.

Look folks, I’m not agreeing with vanilla in any way, I’m an atheist. But it seems to me that people are making two groups of Christians, the good ones and the bad ones. The good ones conveniently don’t mention that pesky unfriendly non-PC line that Jesus said saying he’s the only way, or possibly pick and choose what words of their savior they decide to follow.

The bad ones plainly state that they believe what Jesus taught, which I always thought was the definition of a Christian, and are attacked for it.

It’s fucking ridiculous to attack a Christian for following the words of Christ. It might be logically valid to attack her for being a Christian in the first place, but to be OK with Christians in general, but not the ones who who happen to believe that one line stated clearly by Christ in the Christian’s holy book, that makes no fucking sense.

278

Thanks, Aries, Steve, Calm Kiwi, et al. Your viewpoints were politely stated and appreciated. I will have to agree to disagree, but discussing it is so much more informative this way. I don’t think any of you sound “watered down.”

I don’t believe there is a heaven or hell, other than the one we create here on Earth (whether self-inflicted or due to just plain bad luck). I agree with TDN that the moment we’re living in is all we’re going to get. You can live the life of a good person or a bad person. Your reward or punishment will be realized in this lifetime.

Man! All this talk about hell! It’s starting to get warm in here…I better go have a cigarette (I could probably light it off my kneecap right about now!)

279

Thank you for saying what has been bothering me about this thread for so long.
The Bible, at least the Old Testament, is adisgusting book, describing a hateful, wrathful, judgemental God. Read Numbers 31 or Numbers 15:32-36. Even in the New Testament, Christ says he comes bearing not peace but a sword (Matthew 110:34-36) and that no man can be his follower who hates not his father (Luke 14:26). We’ve been over this, it isn’t anything new.

But I find it hard to fault vanilla simply for believing the words of her Lord. The faults of the Word are at the root of the problem.

280

Thank you for expressing my beliefs far more elequently than I could, Aries28.
[sub](And I think you’re cool too.)[/sub]
I came to Christ, not because I was hectored into it, but first, because my in-laws are such a wonderful example of what a Christian life can be.
They are such peaceful loving happy people that I wanted what they had.
And then my heart was touched directly but I think the only thing more annoying than some one relating a religious revelation is being told about another’s dream, so I’ll spare you the details of that.

With that said however, I must admit that I lean far more towards a Quaker perspective of Christianity then other Protestant sects and I avoid anyone who is determined to interpret the Bible for me like the proverbial plague.
I believe that, unless you have a personal relationship with God, everything else is a meaningless ritual.
I also believe that I am a finite being and that, by definition, I am incapable of truly grasping an infinite being.
All I can do is understand that I am loved and forgiven-if I love and forgive.
I don’t much concern myself with ‘heaven’ and I hate the concept that it’s some kind of Disney Land where well behaved children get their reward.
My faith provides me with a model for living my life daily and, for me, the whole “Judge not…” clause is extremely important.
For example, I would never condemn anyone for who they love or who they have sex with.
A quick look at my past reveals just how imperfect I am in that way.
vanilla has stated that God is not a hippie and by that I think she means that we as Christians cannot accept a fuzzy ‘everything and anything goes’ belief system.
However, I think she and I have a very different understanding of what pisses God off.
Hate and prejudice and smug sanctimoniousness callous uncaring attitude, a lack of charity, hypocrisy and the tolerance of evil are the great sins in my book.
God does not want me to spend my life pointing out your sin but rather eradicating mine.
Flawed vassal that I am, it would be terribly presumptuous of me to try and convert anyone by words alone.
I can only try and live as an example of the great goodness that Christ can bring into anyone’s life.
I hope that makes sense-I know that I can be quite clumsy when I try to explain the why and how’s of what my faith is.