WHY God?

Couple more things I’ve been thinking of - sorry if they seem like a hijack, have been done to death before, or would be more appropriate in another thread.

Let’s say you have an experience that seems to you to suggest the supernatural. Say you and your parents are thinking about your sick uncle and he calls at that moment. You are unsure how to assess this, so you go for a walk.

Let’s say you meet three people and tell them your story. The first says, "That is proof of a benevolent intercessionary God."
The second says, “A good witch sensed your distress and cast a spell to make your uncle call you.” (Apologies to Wiccans for misrepresentation of their beliefs).
The third says, "The microchips the aliens implanted in your uncle’s brain is obviously working."

Which interpretation do you accept? I do not see why one of these is any more reasonable to accept than the other, or infinite other possible supernatural “explanations” from ESP, to ghosts, and IPUs.

So you keep walking and meet a fourth person. And he says, "Wow, what a wacky coincidence. Is this a neat world or what! But you probably don’t recall all of the times you were thinking about family members and the DID NOT call. No reason to worry about the reason or dwell on what it means. Just appreciate it and go on to live your life as best you can."

How does this explanation hold up to the others?

Now let’s add some more wrinkles, and flesh out these strangers you meet.
Let’s say the first one, advancing God as an explanation, is an old bum who lives in a box under a bridge. He seems unclean and unhealthy, and everyone you know questions his sanity.
Person #2, the witch fan, is a beautiful member of the gender you find most attractive, and you sense that this discussion might present an opportunity for you to get in his/her pants. But, you sense that accepting these beliefs will estrange you from your family.
Person 3, the UFOlogist, is a respected family member, considered by everyone you know to be wise, loving, and reasonable, with a wide circle of close friends who meet frequently to discuss the latest in alien technology.

Do these factors affect which belief you accept? Obviously, any of these or multiple other descriptions could be assigned to any of the three.

What if the 4th guy, the coincidence advocate, tells you there is this big fancy building where he and other rational humanists meet to discuss science and reason, and to celebrate human nature. They have special music, recreational activities, and even schools for children as well as adults. They have active political action committees. You feel that getting closer to this fellow will give you an already formed support group. Members of his group have their own country clubs, special holidays, business networks, etc. You see where I’m going here.

My point is not to convince you to believe one thing or another. Just suggesting you not discount the various factors that may contribute to your accepting and maintaining a certain belief system.


Additional issue which I don’t believe has not come up in this particular thread, but people often say God is necessary to explain their “purpose.”

Many if not most nonbelievers are content to accept that there is no divinely ordained purpose.

If you really want a purpose, you could take a page from Gould and others and suggest the universe, or at least our corner of it, serves to support the development of bacteria. Humans are an evolutionary dead end - there are far fewer primate species than previously. Meanwhile bacteria are thriving. So maybe God “created” humans to provide hosts for bacteria. They live all over us both inside and out. Everywhere we look we seem to find new species - underground, undersea, underice in Antarctica… When we manipulate the environment, we are just creating new evolutionary opportunities for bacteria and other organisms. And when we die, we rot and provide opportunities for other critters.

Just a pleasant thought. :slight_smile:

Dinsdale, I have nothing but respect for your posting style and the questions you have asked.

In my case, I would have to go into an extensive length of detail (about 80 long paragraphs at minimum) and a psychological striptease to adequately answer your question, and you’ll forgive me if I do not go through that again. But suffice it to say that (1) the Entity whom I experienced presented Himself in response to an address to the God of Christianity, (2) seems to be guiding me quasi-directly from time to time, as well as in the general principles He (assuming Him to be identical to the Christian God) laid down…

Okay, so far, self-delusion is quite possible. “Poly hears voices; call the guy with the straitjacket” would be quite an acceptable reaction.

Okay, key is (3) … and led me into a much healthier psychological/emotional state, which I was not aware that I needed and probably would have rejected if encouraged into it secularly, (4) in part by the intervention of persons who came to enter my life as a direct though complex result of following His instructions, and whom I had no idea of their existence at the time I took the actions that resulted in them entering my life.

To me, this strongly suggests the work of a Divine Providence looking out for my psychic wellbeing.

Why me, and not glitch or Freyr (who have spoken of their failure to be answered by the same deity)? I don’t know.

But, on the basis of my conclusion that I have actually experienced God and not a self-delusion, for reasons given above, and the implications of What that God is vis-a-vis the Universe and humanity, I am content to leave it to His doing what He thinks best, and simply follow His instructions. Which would include answering you with this post – on the presumption that “spreading the Good News,” “respecting the dignity of your fellow man,” and “loving your neighbor as yourself” conjoin to require me to speak the truth as I know it in response to your question.

Thanks DaveW, I hadn’t encountered that one before. I will add it to my collection.

As to RickJay’s assertion that all religious discussions in here will be “hijacked” by people “insulting the religious”… reminds me of the abbott in “The Name of the Rose” who wants to destroy the copy of Aristotle’s Poetics because of the discussion of comedy.

Let me phrase things another way for RickJay’s benefit: my disbelief in a god is based pretty much on the same grounds as my disbelief in dragons.

I estimate this is the 2000th thread I’ve read in which Christians and Atheists dig trenches and open fire on each other.

I always wince a little as I read these posts, because I’m devoutly religious, though not of any of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths.

I’ve watched boths sides shout past each other for some time now, without listening to what the other has to say. Maybe a third perspective might help?

One time, William Blake, talking in a Christian context, said that science would never find God because science only assumes the existence of five senses, and spirituality is a sort of sixth sense – the ability to see the divine in all things. The atheist imagines this is just fantasy, the religious feels this to be a vital part of life – not a crutch, any more than eating or sleeping are crutches.

Whether one needs this connection divine or not is simply a matter of how one wants to live one’s life. It’s not up for debate. And for those of us who are religious, there are many paths to this experience. Some people may indeed feel they have found the only “fountain of youth”, but this is just arrogance.

Part of the problem is that religion is three things:
[ul][li]a sense of the divine[/li][li]a moral code[/li][li]a worldview[/li][/ul]
The religious often believes that the second is impossible without the first, and the non-religious often believes that the second is only possible without the first, or at least more possible. In my experience, neither view is correct. Religion or irreligion seem to make no difference to morality whatsoever.

It really comes down to morality – and by that I mean not the finer details of the sabbath and sexuality. I’m talking about more universal ideas of morality, such as the ever-basic “Thou shall not kill.”

No religious system – and I include atheism in that because a firm belief in nothing is still a belief, in abscence of any evidence on any side – can erase the fact that when it comes to make a moral decision, it is us as individual human beings who make that decision. Not our systems of belief. A Christian who chooses an immoral course will usually rationalize away his choice as the will of God. And atheist will claim the benefit of Reason. The action is still immoral.

I think that because each side sees the other as harbingers of a more bloodthirsty world, both sides have developed a bunker mentality. Each feels the other’s belief system forced on them. Evangelion Christians tend to start pushing the stranger points of their religion – like sexual morality – onto the public, somehow believing that these are linked to their more universal moral belief, in one package as an acceptance of God. Atheists then counterattack by assaulting the Christian worldview, drawing attention to the fact that it makes very little sense to the scientific worldview, which is sort of missing the point.

And with each turn of the vicious circle, the hate and intolerance grows, which can only help to draw out exactly the same immoral behaviour each side expects from the other.

bagkitty wrote:

Huh. I first saw that one about 16 years ago, on a button (complete with a cute first-aid-type red cross), right next to the buttons which had the two quotes you posted above. I was at a sci-fi convention.

I would read that as, “I think believing in God is silly.” I don’t think that will be less insulting to RickJay.

Lolo, regarding your question as to why people feel that others feel a need to share their belief/non-belief in God, I think that insecurity has a role in such a perspective. I don’t think that people who are secure or confident in a belief feel as strong a drive to convince others that they are “right”.

Does that suggest that everyone who has posted an ‘opinion’ or ‘shared their belief/non-belief’ in this thread has done so out of a sense of insecurity?

If yes… wow!

If no… who and on what basis?

How does that happen? I mean, growing up. Would you explain how it happened for you?

(Personal question so I understand that you may reasonably refuse to respond but I’m genuinely interested to know).

I was suggesting that people who feel a strong need to make others adopt their beliefs, or who are driven to attack the beliefs of others may do so out of a sense of insecurity. Stating one’s beliefs or debating beliefs do not fall into this category. In fact, a willingness to debate, discuss, or share one’s beliefs shows a mature confidence in one’s convictions, in my opinion.

Hmmm… I think I know what you mean but it does appear to be a little contradictory.

Doesn’t debating suggest a desire to convince another party to adopt your way of thinking? (Accepting that you might also have to be willing to change your own views as a result of the debating process).

If it does suggest this, is it really done out of a sense of insecurity?

Is it not possible to have motives other than personal insecurity as the reason(s) to introduce your own beliefs and opinions to others? Or for that matter, to ‘challenge’ the beliefs of others? (Whether through debate or otherwise)

Be careful how you answer this one, as I’m not feeling insecure at the moment… :wink:

I seem to be excelling at vagueness! I’ll try to fight my loquacious nature and be clear and concise.

I think of debating as a rhetorical exercise in which one presents arguments supporting one’s position or opposing the position of another. Thus, I think of a debate as an open exchange of ideas, rather than an effort to make someone agree with you. It is common for opponents in a debate to end up maintaining their original positions, while respecting the position held by their opposition.

It is a strong compulsion to convince others that you are right and they are wrong that I believe may be due to insecurity. It may also be due to the fact that one feels that an opposing belief is harmful or immoral, in extreme cases.

This has been a lot of fun. Thanks, all, for what has been an infinitely more interesting discussion than the usual wrangling about DNA, RNA and what a braying jackass Jerry Falwell is. I don’t know if we’ve actually moved so much as a single person from their first impressions about whether or not there is a God, but most folks seem to be enjoying the ride. Congratulations.

Anyway…

It could be that I’m misusing “normative”. Let me 'splain.

What I mean by “normative” – which I have been using interchangeabley with “objective”, “binding” and “real” – is that morality is an actual, non-material reality, against which we may measure the material world; like Plato’s Forms, I suppose. So, not killing people is not Good simply because it’s “good in many people’s books”. Rather, it’s Good because it comports with normative/objective/binding/real moral law. That’s my – admittedly, subjective – starting point for reasoning about whether or not there is a God.

If there’s a God, I can hold that that moral law is objective, because it’s founded upon the unchanging, non-contingent character of God. That would allow me to affirm my observations about not killing people being a normatively/objectively/bindingly/really moral ethic for human interrelationship. But if there is no God, then the only thing upon which I can found moral law is ‘my book’, or ‘your book’, or ‘Joseph Goebbels’ book’, or whatever. However I cut it, morality becomes subjective, and therefore, negotiable. The trouble is, that represents the negation of my starting point. So – given my presuppositions – I can’t consistently adopt an atheistic worldview.

Of course, you will suggest – rightly – that my starting point for all of this is entirely subjective. But I have to start somewhere. Who am I going to believe? You, or my own lying eyes?

It occurs to me that perhaps we have been talking past one another in this discussion, simply because we have begun with radically different starting points. I begin with the presupposition that objective moral law exists and claim to reason from there to the necessity of God’s existence. You, on the other hand, begin with the presupposition that God does not exist. And therefore, there’s a good deal about my presuppositions that seems untenable to you. After all, for you, there is – prima facie – no such thing as non-material existence. (Yes?)

I don’t think it’s a leap at all. If objective morality cannot possibly exist, then all that we can say about a thing is that it does or does not comport with our subjectively agreed upon standards for conduct. For example, ‘Killing people is bad in our book.’ That’s not really the same as saying that some things just are Good or Evil.

Under that view, “Good” and “Evil” are ultimately just subjective judgments wearing bigger shoes. They’re how we tell one another that we reallyreally like or reallyreally don’t like something. In an atheistic/materialistic universe, is it not necessarily so? Where is the tree that Goodness grows on? Or where is the guague that measures it?

We do agree. And I’m sincerely thankful for your comradeship. It’s only that we differ on what it is that makes those things good. I say that they’re good because there is an objective moral law in the universe, in relation to which those things that are good pass muster. You say that they are good because we agree that it is so. As always, I stipulate that my notion of a moral law’s independent existence is based upon my experiences and intuitions about The Way Things Are. You are not required to accept the notion that moral law exists independently.

But I think that you are arguing for more than this. You posit that morality itself exists only in – or perhaps because of? – context. The rules against which we judge one act or another do not – under your view – exist independently. Rather, they are social constructs; how a thing lines up ‘in our book’. So, not only do moral judgments take context into account, but even the rules about what is or isn’t moral are themselves contextual. When we’re gone, no one will give a rip about ‘our book’. They’ll make up their own. Ask Hammurabi.

**And I have a worldview which accounts perfectly for my perception of the Way Things Are, and it doesn’t necessarily include a god. (But by necessity it does include other people’s beliefs in various gods…)

OK. If that seems coherent to you, then you should definitely run with it. I’m sticking with what I’ve got.

Humbly and respectfully submitted (again),
–B

{fixed code --Gaudere}

[Edited by Gaudere on 10-08-2001 at 10:57 AM]

A person can rattle on and on and on about whehter or not there is a God and why, but if they don’t know how to use a computer, they can still end up looking like a total dipstick, simply by pressing a button. Sorry about the above. Can anybody fix that? Can I? Help.

I agree.

I observe the introduction here of the word ‘may’. Assuming that it is not a slip on your behalf, I would find this ‘revised’ statement now to be acceptable. However…

I’m sure that posters here could add many more too.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tourbot *
**

Of course I don’t have objective proof that God exists. My point has never been to suggest that I have objective proof of anything.

All I’m suggesting is that, in order to make sense of my own observations and intuitions about The Way Things Are, it seems necessary to me to posit the existence of God.

Absent conclusive proof in either direction on the existence of God, we all have some subjective presupposition on which we base our view of Things; For me, the notion that morality exists independently. For you – I gather – that it is not necessary to posit the existence of God, in order to make sense of Things.

I’m just trying to make sense of what I see in front of me. I regard this as more satisfying than the alternatives because – for example – what it is that you see in front of you is none of my concern. Nor do I have access to it.

I don’t get what you’re driving at.

Warlor,
The “may” was intentional. I try not to be too narrow or rigid in my views, but it is an ongoing battle!

Fun discussion.
Addressing this response to poly:
The question you admit no answer to, why you and not others, is a big one for me.
I truly respect your beliefs, and your explanation of what contributed to your beliefs.
My impression, however, is that a significant proportion (a majority, a considerable majority?) of believers do not base their beliefs on a pattern of experiences as yours, and have not conducted the search to formuate/identify the most suitable personal religious philosphy. And I do not extend a commensurate respect to those whose beliefs lack what I consider as strong a foundation as yours.
It really seems odd that God would see fit to make himself aware to certain folk like yourself (tho even to you, he didn’t spell it out but, instead, required you to “fill in the blanks.”) But other people search, yet do not find. And I wonder what subtle signs he may have directed my way that I missed, ignored, or misinterpreted. Tho I spent my time in church and RE classes, I was not searching for God. And the way my search formulated itself in my brain, seemed to pretty much knock God out of the running from the start.
Why did YOU get the benefit of his divine direction, while the rest of us have to rely on your second hand report? I’m sure you have posted this many times before - perhaps even in response to my queries, but if you could stand repeating a short form, were you actively searching at the time of your revelatory experiences? Also, how far is your current theology from what you were raised in?
Thanks.

(Actually, I just want to keep bumping this thread 'cause in it poly says nice things bout li’l ole me!)

I know that you weren’t necessarily asking me any of these questions, but…

…so far.

The key concept here is “so far”. It’s not for Polycarp, or Jerry Falwell, or me – or you – to determine what God will do, with regard to the ways and times in which He reveals himself.

You should keep on looking. We’ll keep on trying not to be stumbling blocks for you. And God will be done with you when He’s done with you. Until then, this is all “…so far”.

You shoudn’t go writing yourself out of God’s plan before you quit breathing. Case in point is the Apostle Paul, who came to the Church relatively late in life, after a promising career in stoning Christians.

Paul’s answer to the specific question of why God reveals himself to the folks He chooses to reveal Himself to was – first and foremost – because He desires to be merciful to those who can never merit His grace.

There is – and this is absolutely fundamental to Christian faith – NOTHING for any of us to whom God has revealed Himself to glory in.

Try Romans.

My current theology is considerably more conservative that that with which I was raised.

–B

Well, I’m not sure if the process is finished or not. It may not be.

Vis a vis religion, however, it was simply confronting and accepting the harsh probability that there is no super-omnipotent being somewhere who will watch out for me and make things right. That if I want my destiny to go a certain way, I have to get off my keister and make it happen. And the acceptance that the universe will simply continue to go on after I die, and probably not bother to shed a tear in the process. Not very comforting, but more realistic than what religion teaches.

“Life is suffering, highness; anyone who says otherwise is selling something.” –The Princess Bride

Dinsdale asks me:

I think that’s accurate. I’d guess that about 20% of Christians claim “experience” in this sense; others base their beliefs on things ranging from unquestioning adherence to what they were taught as children, to the authority of Scripture and/of leaders they respect, to logic based on authority they respect, and presumably several other explanations.

Myself, I’d be inclined to respect those who defer to authority they view as valid and practice what they preach.

I do take your point. But we are speaking at a particular moment in time, when, as it happens, He has provided me with evidence sufficient to satisfy me, as he has with others, and has not done so for you and numerous others. There was a time when I would have been in the latter group; presumably there will be a time when some of those now there will be in the first group. My personal opinion is that I needed it more than most and so got it first.

‘When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”’ (Matthew 12:34) :wink:

As noted above, and as I described once in response to Snark Hunter, I was an arid, unloving, legalistic individual with major self-dislike – and God intervened in a rather strange way to break me out of that rut. Make of that what you will – I like pldennison and Gaudere and Spiritus Mundi much more than I liked that person whom I used to be, and have a strong feeling that others here would feel much the same, had they known him.

No. I’d gone through a questioning phase in my late teens (and the sun rose yesterday, right? ;)) but had settled into a mode where I “considered myself a believer” but in the sense that I had an intellectual interest in Christian thought and history, and in Biblical scholarship. But the idea of a relationship with God was the farthest thing from my mind – I barely had a relationship with humans.

Aside from adhering to Romans 8:28, taught to me by my grandmother before I could walk or talk, pretty far. I was brought up in a “socially acceptable” Methodist church which did not ask any questions nor stand for anything more controversial than whether a dart baseball league could morally rent the church basement for their games on weekday nights. The sorts of stances that Jodi and RTFirefly and I have agreed on on this board would have totally horrified everyone there – including the child me at the time.