I meant “pulled the gun prior to the fight.” you with the face is arguing that Zimmerman approached Martin with the gun drawn. My argument is that he left it in his waistband until moments before the shooting, just like Z’s dad said.
you with the face: Per Martin’s girlfriend, he didn’t run away from Zimmerman. She wanted him to, but he reportedly said he was only going to walk quickly. Then Martin said to him, “Why are you following me?”
Do you honestly think Martin saw a man with a gun at that point? And that he decided not to run away, but instead confront the man about why he was following him? That’s not normal human behavior.
If Martin had known that Zimmerman was unhinged and armed, he would have booked his ass out of there. As it went down, he clearly had no idea how serious the situation was about to get. Only Zimmerman knew the potential.
No I don’t think he approached him with his gun drawn. Only after the point when Martin was trying to get away. In doing so, there was probably a physical struggle that put them both on the ground. But I believe the gun was out well in advance before it was fired. In fact, if I had to bet, I would guess the yells for help started exactly when the gun was pulled out.
Yeah, she said he walked quickly, but the key is that he was walking quickly away from Zimmerman once he realized he was being followed. And according to Zimmerman on the 911 call, the kid was running away from him. Both indicate Martin was trying to create as much distance between he and Zimmerman. That sounds like a fearful reaction. Both the GF and Zimmerman seem to agree that Martin at least initially fled.
And yes, his GF said Martin asked Z why he was following him. She also said he was cornered. This tells us that Zimmerman found a way to catch up with Martin somehow. He closed the distance between them.
No, I don’t think he knew he was armed initially. I think Zimmerman closed in on him from the oncoming direction and tried to block his path after the kid asked him why he was following him. That’s what set off the pushing and shoving. The gun would have come out shortly thereafter. Cue the yelling. Pow.
Very simple actually.
It sounds like he tried, at least initially, according to both Martin’s GF and Zimmerman. Somehow Zimmerman caught up with him. The boy was shot far away from Zimmerman’s truck, buth he was fairly close to father’s home. This is another thing that doesn’t match up with Zimmerman’s story.
We have far more evidence that Zimmerman pursued Martin up until the very end, than we have of Martin going out his way to confront Zimmerman. Do you disagree with this?
What assumptions are you making about the location of the truck and of Brandy Green’s Town home? Based on the head start Martin had, I can’t come up with a scenario where Zimmerman overtakes Martin unless Martin stops at some point.
Let’s say Martin did stop at some point. That still means Zimmerman closed the distance between them. It would have been easy to catch up with him if Martin stopped moving.
One thing that is not in dispute that the kid was killed on the backyard pathway. If Zimmerman had not left the street where he was parked and gone back there looking for Travyone, there is no way the two would’ve encountered each other. Nothing about the location where the shooting occurred suggests that Martin went out of his way to antagonize Zimmerman. Rather, it points to the opposite.
There is circumstantial physical evidence that Martin did in fact hit Zimmerman, it doesn’t require an assumption. It is a reasonable and likely outcome if a stranger tries to physically detain an athletic 17 year old. Step back and look at the context. Just because Martin hit Zimmerman won’t automatically justify the shooting as self defense. If the blow(s) came in an attempt to flee the unlawful restraint imposed by Zimmerman, Zimmerman is out of luck.
Central factor? I’d say that unless you believe Zimmerman it is a total non-factor. It is my opinion that Zimmerman shot Martin, because he didn’t want him to get away. Remember Zimmerman’s earlier comment to the 911 operator? “They always get away.”
But some of the stories fit the evidence in a heat of the moment kind of way. Some of the stories fit in plotting, planning, carefully considered kind of way. I don’t think this was a well thought out crime.
How would you yell for help if it was after dark and someone larger and unknown to you was physically detaining you? It is reasonable that Martin was plaintive and fearful without having seen the gun.
Not likely at all that the majority of what is heard isn’t Martin. I’m just not so positive there isn’t a “help” tossed in there from Zimmerman as well.
However, if he didn’t know Zimmerman had a gun and he was just dealing with some crazy dude trying to grab on to him and stop him from leaving before police arrive, he might not be that inclined to scream for help and just trust in his ability to break free. In which case maybe it was Zimmerman yelling, not because his life was in danger, but because he didn’t want Martin to “get away”. He wanted help detaining him. Doesn’t really matter who was yelling as far as in either case the request for help wasn’t because Zimmerman was in fear for his life.
Really?
REALLY?
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I was much stronger and much less fearful at 17 than I am today. Hell, at that age, my teammates and I didn’t just “think” we were indestructible, we were certain of it.
I’d like to add to this that, in my opinion, people who carry handguns, call the cops every 10 minutes, and see “threats” where none exist, are typically giant pussies. I think Zimmerman was no different. That he was armed on his way to the grocery store is evidence of his cowardice, not his fearlessness.
I will stipulate that the confrontation could not have have occurred if Martin and Zimmerman hadn’t both acted in ways that were legal but stupid. As far as I can determine, nothing actually illegal happened until Zimmerman and Martin came into actual physical contact.
I would tend to rate Zimmerman’s moral responsibility as greater, since he had a CWP. In my value system, a armed citizen accepts greater responsibility than unarmed citizens. I don’t put much weight on Martin’s age. At 17, you are already supposed to know not to assault people who aren’t threatening you. If Martin had killed Zimmerman and the DA had determined a crime had occurred, I would expect Martin to be tried as an adult. The special prosecutor on this case is prosecuting a 12 years as an adult currently.
He wasn’t “packing” because he anticipated a fight. He was “packing” because he was on the way to the grocery store. The people I know with CCW permits carry almost 100% of the time. They think it is pretty pointless to have the permit and not carry as in their opinion you can’t predict when trouble will find you.
Go around laying your hands on 17 year olds to “stop them from getting away”. I’m pretty sure you will find that many will find a pop in the nose a reasonable response.
I know this. But I still think we’ve glommed on to the hitting as the cause of the shooting mainly because that’s the direction Zimmerman has steered us towards. It’s not as though he’s going to cite some other reason for shooting Martin. In order for it to be self-defense, it has to be this. So we need to be open to other explanations.
I think he tried to restrain Martin so he wouldn’t get away. The 911 calls tells us that this was his intent. Not to kill the kid.
Because his goal was to keep him from running away and Martin refused to make it easy for him, Zimmerman whipped out his gun to scare the boy into submission. But Martin started screaming. This messed everything up. He knew at this point he’d stepped over the line. He panicked and shot the kid.
I don’t either. I don’t think there was any plotting whatsover. I think panic is why he shot Martin, not pain or physical fear. This panic came from the fear of not living up to his image as a strong, capable, fearless superhero. He was expecting everything to be like the movies. You whip the gun out at the bad guy and he stands there with his hands up, looking stupid. “Foiled again”, says the bad guy. Then when the cops come, you can say “Take him away boys” and they clap you on the shoulder. And all the girls in the neighborhood oooh and ahhh over you.
Sure it is. But why we should assume he didn’t see the gun just simply because of what Zimmerman said? Do you really think he’s going to admit to brandishing a firearm? Of course not; it would cause his whole self-defense claim to crumble like a house of cards.
That said, this is not why I’m skeptical that he kept his gun concealed. I’m skeptical because it’s requires a leap of faith to believe he wouldn’t have used his weapon as means of restraining Martin. Like I said earlier in this thread, that’s as crazy as thinking a fireman would rush into a burning building without a hose in hand. Z was deadset on keeping the boy in place until the cops showed up; what better way to do this than to draw his gun out? Why would he dilly dally?
Nothing about Zimmerman’s conduct up until that moment suggests he had the self-restraint necessary to keep his gun concealed the instant things got physical. He was quick draw mcgraw when he reported Martin as suspicious. He was quick on the prowl when he started following Martin before and after the 911 call. And he confronted the kid on the pathway. But we’re supposed to believe he exercised overjudicious caution when it came to pulling out this gun? This doesn’t add up.
Like I said, it’s a stretch to believe he wouldn’t know Zimmerman was carrying by the time the yelling started. To entertain this notion means you’re giving credence to Zimmerman’s statement, and there’s no reason any of us should do this. Especially when we’re talking about the difference between a man confessing to aggravated assault versus one who has a legitimate claim to self-defense.
I understand your theory, I just think it’s unlikely and requires us to give too much credence to hot button elements in Zimmerman’s story.
I don’t think the hitting has anything to do with the shooting. I think Martin breaking free of Zimmerman’s grasp (another one getting away) was the the cause of the shooting.
The fact that there was hitting became a convenient alibi.