To the extent that you’d remain silent if a stranger picked a fight with you on a dark street and stuck a gun at you?
Like steronz, we must like on different planets. Because in my world, I’d be shitting my pants, crying, *and *screaming.
Not every teenaged male thinks they are invicible.
If he were that smart and that reasoned, I would know that “brandishing” the weapon would very likely result in the loss of his permit.
Which is exactly why 1) he would never admit to doing this, and 2) Martin had put him a compromising position by screaming. It would only take one witness to see him holding the kid at gunpoint to lose his privileges and everything he was working towards. So he panicked. Kabloohey.
How do you think Zimmerman was planning on restraining the kid without putting his gun into play? Was he operating under the assumption that Martin would just stand there? Did he think he could just put the kid in a bear hug and wait things out? I’m honestly trying to imagine how Zimmerman thought he could detain Martin without drawing his gun, and I’m drawing a blank.
I politely disagree. I think you are stretching to color this as a case of a meek teen fleeing for his life gunned down by the preternaturally fast Zimmerman. Your “likely” scenario asks us to jump through many hoops and requires singular interpretation of many of the facts. You insist for whatever personal reasons that Martin not only be innocent, he must be angelic to boot.
You just can’t seem to grasp the fact that Martin could have hit Zimmerman yet in no way have justified Zimmerman’s fatal response.
Well, we can take a bet if you want. $50 says that when the forensic guy tests Martin’s voice against the yelling on that tape, the likelihood score is greater than 75%. $10 says it’s merely higher than Zimmerman’s. Willing to take either bet?
I don’t think Zimmerman is actually fearless. But he sees himself that way. There’s a difference.
It is unlikely that Zimmerman fabricated his cover story from whole cloth. The story that incorporates as many of the known facts and accounts is more likely to be true than a story that wants us to forget that witnesses have reported one person on top off another.
How do you explain that? Kid approached with a gun mournfully wailing in fear doesn’t sound like the type to go on the offensive and wind up on top. Zimmerman in your junior cop fantasy would have to be one part brilliant (alibi) and two parts moron (permit holder brandishing weapon, physically engaging Martin) to wind up on top. It you got the drop on him, there is no need to get in close.
Yeah, you must be living on a different planet. I know people who have been mugged at gunpoint, and nobody started screaming. There’s an instinct, I think, not to piss off the guy with the gun. That means a) shut up, b) hand over whatever he asks for. Shitting yourself is probably on the menu. Crying, meh. I’ll let you have that one owing to your gender. Men don’t cry 
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I’m honestly trying to imagine how Zimmerman thought he could detain Martin without drawing his gun, and I’m drawing a blank.
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I honestly don’t think he intended on restraining him at first. I think he was just following him. He knew the cops were on their way, and he wanted to be able to point out exactly where he went. Remember that he told the 911 operator to have the cops call him when they showed up, and he’d tell him where he was.
I think he was probably surprised that Martin had the chutzpah to turn around and say “Why are you following me?” That right there probably put Zimmerman on the defensive. I think he ultimately did try to physical restrain him, and things just got out of hand.
This notion that he’d walk around, 6-gun at his hip, telling people to reach for the sky is a bit… well, your world is interesting, that’s for sure.
I’m wondering if you ever were a teenage male.
Shitting my pants? Maybe, maybe not. Wailing mournfully? Very unlikely. Most likely it would have been a “hey man, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just hold on. Let’s talk about this.” response.
You’ve honestly never seen a fight where one participant tries to walk away initially?
Usually the aggressor grabs them by a sleeve, the arm, the collar. Something like that. A “hey where are you going?” move. Typically the one that was restrained from leaving responds with a shove to get away. The aggressor (if he is large enough or strong enough to not be knocked down) either strikes back or grabs on to person attempting to retreat. The struggle worsens and it either ends in standing fisticuffs or a rolling struggle on the ground.
Ah, I see now. You aren’t interested in WHAT happened. You are interested in being RIGHT about what you say happened.
Like Iron Mike said. I want to believe Zimmerman did something illegal, hell I am certain he did. But you and I weren’t there and we are never going to have all the answers since one of the participants is dead. I’ll take whatever story is the easiest to prove and convict him with.
Who does? I sure don’t. As steronz pointed out, the CCW permit is evidence that he was a fearful man.
The only time an aggressor continued to aggress with me when I would not engage, she just ran up behind me and jumped on me, knocking me flat. I stood up, brushed myself off, never even looked back, and kept walking.
If I were a betting man, I’d put my money on **steronz’s **interpretation; that’s my take as well. What it all boils down to me is that Zimmerman was an idiot to leave the street. What could he have been expecting when he followed Martin into the yards? That they would have a pleasant chat and go about their business? I don’t think so – I cite Zimmerman’s 911 calls.
I’m sure he thought he’d get the drop on the kid, but didn’t anticipate it being at close quarters. And when it went down that way - whether Martin punched Zimmerman, or Zimmerman grabbed Martin, or whatever - there was just no fucking way this theiving thug was going to get away.
His inner pussy blossomed like a daisy and “AAAAAH!” BANG! was the result.
Where have said that Martin is as angelic? I’ve simply asserted we have no good reason to believe him hitting Zimmerman was the true reason why the man to shot him. And that’s 100% true. I think you’re reading too much into my posts.
Here are your hoops your theory must take us through:
That Zimmerman kept his weapon concealed up until the moment he fired the gun. Even though his agenda from the beginning was the keep Martin from getting away. Problem is, you still haven’t come up with any likely explanation for how he thought he could restrain Martin without putting his gun into play. Holding his hand?
That Martin was about to get away from his grasp, and that’s why he shot him. To keep him from getting away. Not exactly a hoop, but I’m not convinced that Zimmerman was so invested in restraining Martin that he was willing to murder the guy to do it.
That Martin was so fearless, so sure of his indestructability, that its unlikely he would have been the voice yelling for help. Even though he wasn’t the agressor or carrying a weapon. Compared to the man with the gun, he was defenseless. But you’re saying his 17 year-old stoicism would have kept his mouth shut. Okay. Big hoop.
That Zimmerman was yelling for help like a desperate madman as a way of rallying his neighbors to stop this a thug from getting away. Why he would think Mary, Jon, and them would be capable of stopping the unstoppable menance that was Martin is beyond me, but you think this is likelier than Martin yelling for help.
So tell me what hoops am I making you jump through with my theory that Zimmerman panicked when Martin started yelling?
I concur.
you with the face seems to be putting more importance on being right in regard to this story they’ve concocted than in justice being served. you with the face, I hope you have noticed that you and I are ostensibly on the same side.
Tell you what. You keep arguing with everyone here who takes any position. I’ll bow out. When it all shakes out in the courts, if you were closer to the truth, you can come back here and post “nya, nya, nya” for all to see. If I end up being closer to the truth, well, that will be just very very sad indeed and I won’t bother gloating.
You are assuming facts not in evidence.
I know this is going to make me sound sexist, but women don’t fight the same as men.
But, you have also enlightened me to a possibility I didn’t consider. Gun brandished or not (though it would take some serious balls if it was) maybe Martin did just turn and start to leave. Zimmerman jumps him from behind. But tries to hold him down until cops arrive. Struggle ensues. Gun comes out. Struggle to control gun hand and cries for help. Panic sets in and Martin tries to run for it. Bang!
In a very concise and well worded nutshell, that is pretty much my point as well.
Do you think Zimmerman’s goal along was to restrain Martin, to keep him from getting away?
If so, do you really think he was going to acheive that by grabbing him by the sleeve? Do you think that was his plan from jump street, to take the boy by the collar and “Hey, not so fast!” Because if you do, we really have nothing more to say to one another. We might as well be talking different languages.
Some of Zimmerman’s story is probably true. The stuff in his story that has the highest likelihood of being truthful is the stuff that either is completely neutral to his guilt or innocence, or makes him look less than perfect.
But the stuff that has the highest likelihood of being false is the stuff paints the complete picture of a totally justified shooting. So the fact that he denied brandishing a weapon , denied initiating the confrontation with Martin, and claimed that Martin hit him first? All of this is subject to skepticism in the absence of supporting evidence. Since we don’t have that supporting evidence why in the hell would we put any weight in any of this? That’s the part I’m not getting.
Um, no. I’m just interested in seeing how truly steronz confident is in his belief about that voice on the tape.
I mean, two forensic guys have already come out saying that it’s not Zimmerman. If that’s not persuasive evidence that he’s wrong, I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that he finds me unconvincing too. But still.
Please see my response to stoid and also see Jack Batty’s excellent summation of steronz’s position that I think sums my own up as well.
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