Why hasn't the Neighborhood Watch shooter been arrested?

[newme]

@JoelUpchurch

But why does Martin confront Zimmerman when Zimmerman has already walked past him. It would make more sense for him to wait until Zimmerman had turned the corner and then just walk home. I also have some reservation about whether Zimmerman could walk past Martin and not see him.

I have been trying to determine if anything that Zimmerman claims is obviously a lie. If he lies about how they end up face-to-face, then it is easier to believe he is lying about who threw the first punch, or if he tried to grab Martin and provoked him into fighting back.

I have never understood before how Martin could have been cornered either. It stands to reason that a 17 year old weighing 140 can usually out-sprint a 29 year old weighing 230. But the girlfriend says Martin thought he had lost Zimmerman. Hiding in a corner would make him feel that way, at least temporarily, and can explain how Zimmerman caught up to him. I am attempting to create a scenario which is consistent with both Zimmerman’s story and the girlfriend’s story,* up to the time they come face-to-face*.

I agree that if Zimmerman makes it back to “D”, it seems doubtful Martin would want to come out at that moment. But Zimmerman does claim Martin approached from his back and left side. Whether you believe it is up to you.

[Stoid]

@Bricker

Really?

How about “A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force?”

And criminal prosecution is defined in the very statute: “As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.”

Why would he need to make his claim of self-defense in court, when the law says he’s immune from prosecution?

Which is why this law is insane on its face, as pointed out in the essay I posted from last night. Determination of whether it was self-defense or not is a complex process that is done in court. Not necessarily in a full prosecution depending on what evidence there is one way or another, but, as Kimmy said, in pre-trial hearings. Assuming a grand jury, being presented with all the evidence that supports the possibility of a crime and no defense evidence, finds that sufficient.

But giving the cops the call? Madness.

[Hbns]

@Stoid

But giving the cops the call? Madness.

True.

And you can’t trust the courts. Too many political appointees!

I say we just put it to an internet poll. Thumbs up he walks. Thumbs down, hello Sparky.

[Bricker]

@Stoid

Which is why this law is insane on its face, as pointed out in the essay I posted from last night. Determination of whether it was self-defense or not is a complex process that is done in court. Not necessarily in a full prosecution depending on what evidence there is one way or another, but, as Kimmy said, in pre-trial hearings. Assuming a grand jury, being presented with all the evidence that supports the possibility of a crime and no defense evidence, finds that sufficient.

But giving the cops the call? Madness.

I’m coming around to this point of view very quickly. I can’t say I have thought this through completely, but I am strongly leaning towards this provision in this law being madness, as you say. Can’t have a pre-trial hearing without an arrest and a charge, which the law forbids.

However, it’s the law, and the cops were following it.It’s not correct to inveigh against their supposed ineptitude when the problem lies with the text of the law.

[DrDeth]

@JoelUpchurch

Frankly I think this thread should be split so the CSI types don’t have put up with the political arguments.

Yeah, like that’s going to work. The thread which is supposedly about the SYG law (which may or may not have any application here0 is almost entirely about this case, and mostly recently about whether of not Zimmerman said “coon’, which certainly isn’t relevant to the SYG law.
:rolleyes:

[Stoid]

@Bricker

I’m coming around to this point of view very quickly. I can’t say I have thought this through completely, but I am strongly leaning towards this provision in this law being madness, as you say. Can’t have a pre-trial hearing without an arrest and a charge, which the law forbids.

However, it’s the law, and the cops were following it.It’s not correct to inveigh against their supposed ineptitude when the problem lies with the text of the law.

Seriously! It’s like… what the fuck were they thinking??

[DrDeth]

@Stoid

Which is why this law is insane on its face, as pointed out in the essay I posted from last night. Determination of whether it was self-defense or not is a complex process that is done in court. Not necessarily in a full prosecution depending on what evidence there is one way or another, but, as Kimmy said, in pre-trial hearings. Assuming a grand jury, being presented with all the evidence that supports the possibility of a crime and no defense evidence, finds that sufficient.

But giving the cops the call? Madness.

The cops don’t really have the call. It’s mostly based upon whether or not the suspect makes that defense, and of course other things- like can they hold him on a weapons charge, is he cooperating etc.

But even after the decision is made to not arrest him on the spot, there is NOTHING which stops a Grand Jury hearing. In Florida, there are no “pre-trial” hearings for Murder cases, except the Grand Jury.

And indeed, that is exactly what happened here. The police decided the law precluded a arrest at that point in time. This was likely the correct decision based upon the evidence they had- AT THAT TIME.

However, based upon further evidence the DA called for a Grand Jury hearing.

The cops don’t have the final call. The DA has the call- to summon a Grand Jury. The GJ then has the call. Then of course it goes to a trial.

If, anywhere along the line the police decided Zimmerman was a flight risk, they could make a arrest, of course. This does not seem to apply.

[JoelUpchurch]

@newme

I have been trying to determine if anything that Zimmerman claims is obviously a lie. If he lies about how they end up face-to-face, then it is easier to believe he is lying about who threw the first punch, or if he tried to grab Martin and provoked him into fighting back.

I have never understood before how Martin could have been cornered either. It stands to reason that a 17 year old weighing 140 can usually out-sprint a 29 year old weighing 230. But the girlfriend says Martin thought he had lost Zimmerman. Hiding in a corner would make him feel that way, at least temporarily, and can explain how Zimmerman caught up to him. I am attempting to create a scenario which is consistent with both Zimmerman’s story and the girlfriend’s story,* up to the time they come face-to-face*.

I agree that if Zimmerman makes it back to “D”, it seems doubtful Martin would want to come out at that moment. But Zimmerman does claim Martin approached from his back and left side. Whether you believe it is up to you.

I went back to Fox video to refresh my memory on the ground level view. Martin could duck behind one of those little white fences and Zimmerman could walk past him, but as soon as Zimmerman turned back, Martin would be silhouetted against the fence. In a case like that, both of them could be surprised. They could practically be right in each other’s face without expecting it.

[Bricker]

@Stoid

Seriously! It’s like… what the fuck were they thinking??

I imagine they were thinking, “It’s an outrage when someone who defends himself is nonetheless forced to expend dollars and hours going through arrest, arraignment, pre-trial, acquittal, and then a civil suit to boot!”

This goes beyond “Stand Your Ground,” and short-circuits the ordinary process of asserting self-defense in a way the lawmaker did not (I suspect) intend.

Looks at § 776.032(2):

A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

That vests total discretion in the agency. The AGENCY determines if probable cause exists. Not a magistrate. Not the county prosecutor. Why do that?

People in this thread have complained about the “judge and jury” behavior of the police. But the behavior is allowed, if not mandated, by the law.

I said “No comment,” when i was first asked about this, primarily because I wasn’t familiar with Florida’s unique take on SYG. I can’t find another state that codifies provisions like this “immune from arrest, detention in custody, being charged or prosecuted” business.

[DrDeth]

@Bricker

I said “No comment,” when i was first asked about this, primarily because I wasn’t familiar with Florida’s unique take on SYG. I can’t find another state that codifies provisions like this “immune from arrest, detention in custody, being charged or prosecuted” business.

Obviously, there’s no immunity from being charged, since a GJ has been called to see if they will bring a indictment vs Zimmerman.

[Nars_Glinley]

@Stoid

Which is why this law is insane on its face, as pointed out in the essay I posted from last night. Determination of whether it was self-defense or not is a complex process that is done in court. Not necessarily in a full prosecution depending on what evidence there is one way or another, but, as Kimmy said, in pre-trial hearings. Assuming a grand jury, being presented with all the evidence that supports the possibility of a crime and no defense evidence, finds that sufficient.

But giving the cops the call? Madness.

Do you really want all of those that rely on self-defense to have to justify their actions before a court or grand jury? Little old ladies? Rape victims? Victims of domestic violence? Surely there is some room for police discretion. The victim will almost certainly need the services of a lawyer, a lawyer that (please correct me if I’m wrong) that would not be paid for by the government unless and until their arrest or charges were filed against them.

[aceplace57]

No surprise here. The family is ready to cash in on all the hysteria. Interting that the applications were last week. Not long after the shooting and they were already seeing money potentials.

This article also has leaked details from the police report. Zimmerman got a beat down before resorting to shooting. Its also corroborated by witnesses. This guy shouldn’t be charged imho. But, we all know he will be because of the politics and media hysteria.

Meanwhile, the Smoking Gun, a website that tracks criminal cases and document filings, reported Monday afternoon that Martin’s mother, Sabrina Fulton, filed two applications last week for trademarks on her late son’s name.

Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” and “Justice for Trayvon,” according to filings with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-police-report-details-alleged-attack-on-zimmerman

The man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, setting off a nationwide outpouring of anger, told police that Martin knocked him down with a single punch and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times — an account that police said witnesses have corroborated, according to The Orlando Sentinel.

[newme]

@Bricker

I’m coming around to this point of view very quickly. I can’t say I have thought this through completely, but I am strongly leaning towards this provision in this law being madness, as you say. Can’t have a pre-trial hearing without an arrest and a charge, which the law forbids.

I think that in most scenarios, the issue of Prosecutorial Immunity will come up as a post-indictment pre-trial motion to dismiss. More here:

CLARENCE DENNIS, Petitioner, v. STATE OF FLORIDA, Respondent.

No. SC09-941

We also reject the State’s contention that the pretrial hearing on immunity in a criminal case should test merely whether the State has probable cause to believe the defendant’s use of force was not legally justified.   Prior to the enactment of chapter 2005-27, Laws of Florida (2005), Florida law defined certain types of justified force, see §§ 776.12, 776.031, Fla. Stat. (2004), and the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure mandated that a trial judge make a pretrial nonadversarial probable cause determination either before or shortly after a defendant was taken into custody, see Fla. R.Crim. P. 3.133 (2004).  “It is a basic rule of statutory construction that ‘the Legislature does not intend to enact useless provisions, and courts should avoid readings that would render part of a statute meaningless.’ ”  Martinez v. State, 981 So.2d 449, 452 (Fla.2008) (quoting State v. Bodden, 877 So.2d 680, 686 (Fla.2004)).   Accordingly, the grant of immunity from “criminal prosecution” in section 776.032 must be interpreted in a manner that provides the defendant with more protection from prosecution for a justified use of force than the probable cause determination previously provided to the defendant by rule.

I missed that part about “before or shortly after a defendant was taken into custody” on first reading

[Acsenray]

When someone has been killed, I don’t think it’s outrageous for there to be some degree of examination of the full evidentiary record by a disinterested judge or magistrate even when the person is a granny or whatever. Someone’s dead. Going through some kind of reasonable process seems appropriate to me.

[Acsenray]

@aceplace57

No surprise here. The family is ready to cash in on all the hysteria. Interting that the applications were last week. Not long after the shooting and they were already seeing money potentials.

I don’t see anything nefarious about this.

[Surreal]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_marijuana-report-press-conference-gated-community

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

@Acsenray

When someone has been killed, I don’t think it’s outrageous for there to be some degree of examination of the full evidentiary record by a disinterested judge or magistrate even when the person is a granny or whatever. Someone’s dead. Going through some kind of reasonable process seems appropriate to me.

You seem to be forgetting some crucial facts:

(1) Hellooooo … Trayvon smoked dope before. And probably had droopy drawers. And maybe even said the “F” word!!

(2) His mom is doing something distateful.

Therefore, white people are the victims in all this and it really is a shame we can’t convict dead kids. The defense rests.

[OnePercent]

George Zimmerman told police Trayvon Martin beat his head into pavement

" *Despite a growing national outcry, Zimmerman, 28, has not spoken publicly about the incident. But the Orlando Sentinel newspaper has obtained a leaked copy of the account he gave police in which he claims the teenager was the aggressor.

He told officers that he had followed the teenager but had lost sight of him. He was then walking back to the vehicle when Martin approached him from the left rear and they exchanged words.

Martin, according to Zimmerman’s evidence, then asked him if he had a problem. The older man told police that he replied no and started to reach for his cellphone but Martin said, “Well you do now,” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the face.

When Zimmerman fell, he claimed, the teenager got on top of him and started slamming his head into the ground, prompting him to shout for help.

Tapes of the 911 calls from neighbours caught these cries for help, and Martin’s family have been adamant that they came from Trayvon as Zimmerman attacked. But Zimmerman in turn claims it was him. According to the Sentinel, police say their evidence backs this account. One eyewitness has said he saw the teenager on top of Zimmerman.

It was only then that the neighbourhood watchman pulled out a gun and shot Martin in the chest at close range, Zimmerman’s reported account claims.

Sanford Police refused to comment on the story, saying only that it could not “confirm or deny” the account.* "

Funny because this is basically the same scenario that I put forth hundreds of comments ago that everyone claimed was impossible. If this is actually Zimmerman’s story, and the police have no evidence to disprove it, in fact to the contrary it seems they even have evidence that supports his story (broken nose, witness “John” who saw Zimmerman calling for help with Martin on top of him) than why should the police have arrested him? He has committed no wrongdoing. He was attacked, he was having his head knocked into the pavement (very dangerous situation), he repeatedly called for help (recorded on the 9-1-1 calls), and he finally pulled out his gun to save his life. Would anyone here do anything different? In fact, I think it is fair to say that in light of the SYG law may have actually saved Zimmerman’s life in this incident.

[JoelUpchurch]

I found a confirmation on the marijuana story:

http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_20258241/trayvon-martins-family-says-his-suspension-marijuana-is?source=rss

Martin, 17, was suspended by Miami-Dade County schools because traces of marijuana were found in a plastic baggie in his book bag, family spokesman Ryan Julison said. Martin was shot Feb. 26 by George Zimmerman while he was visiting Sanford with his father.

The story also had one new piece of information.

Also Monday, the state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press.

I didn’t even know a newspaper could get access to juvenile records.

I surprise that the Orlando Sentinel appears to have gotten a scoop right in the Miami Herald’s back yard.

[you_with_the_face]

@newme

My reconstruction based on Zimmerman’s statement. Yes, I am pulling a lot of this out of thin air.

Here’s the map:

Zimmerman parks his truck at “A” when Martin runs.

Martin goes around the corner and hides in an alcove at “B”.

Zimmerman follows. He doesn’t see Martin, but makes it to “C” before turning around. Martin tells his girlfriend Zimmerman has him cornered.

Zimmerman makes it back to"D" when Marin comes out of the Alcove. Martin says ,“Why are you following me?” Zimmerman says," Why are you here?" Fight ensues.

Two problems with this:

Why would Martin hide in this “alcove” rather than continue along his way? It’s raining, it’s dark, he’s by himself, he’s unarmed and skinny, and there’s a basketball game on TV at home. What would be his motivation in playing hide and go seek with Zimmerman given these conditions?

Problem 2: Why would Zimmerman make it all the way down to “C” before realizing Martin wasn’t anywhere in sight? Even if the walkway was dark, surely it wouldn’t take long for him to realize he was on a fool’s errand if the person he was stalking was no where in sight.

From your cite:

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

(bolding mine)

I’m sorry, but the line in bold sounds too contrived for real life. It sounds like some corny dialogue that only a terrible screenwriter could cook up. The alleged punch that follows makes me think of old Batman episodes. It stinks of falsehood the same way Susan Smith’s story did.

What is still unaccounted for is how the shooting took place so far from the street. Martin was killed very close to his destination. How did this happen if Martin laid in wait for Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman’s pursuit take him on the walkway behind the houses on Twin Trees? Or did he stay on the main road where his truck was? Seems awfully coincidental (or not) that the kid wound up exactly where you’d expect him to if he’d kept on walking home.

After reading the last few pages of this thread, it’s apparent that folks have made some assumptions that they probably shouldn’t. For example, does anyone know if Martin’s bullet wound entered in the chest or in the back? Does anyone know if Martin had any injuries to his body except for the bullet wound? I don’t think this info has been released, and yet folks are acting as though its an established fact that Zimmerman was the loser in their hand-to-hand scuffle, and that it’s a sure thing that Martin was shot while he was on top of Zimmerman. How far away from Zimmerman was Martin when the gun was fired? One feet? Six? We don’t even have that info. All of that would be important in establishing if Zimmerman’s story holds water.