Why have Democrats and Republicans refused to vote on H.R 40 for 25 years?

Let’s keep our eyes on the point here, which I take to be this: Is it self-evidently the case that any form of reparations for African-Americans would be either unjust or unworkable? That’s the only position I’m questioning the wisdom of.

The questions you raise are essentially about the standard of proof if the model of reparations that were enacted involved some individual fact-finding. Should it be enough to show that your father bought a contract home in Lawndale, or enough just to show that he lived in Lawndale, or enough just to show that he did not own a home but had a middle class job, etc. Similarly, is it enough to show that wealth was improperly taken from or denied a recent ancestor, or do you need to provide some evidence that you would have inherited it. Is second-hand testimony about what happened admissible at all? Sufficient?

Those are all, of course, legitimate and difficult questions–as is the question of whether evidence should be required at all. What you haven’t persuaded me of is that they are obviously not even worthy of formal study because it is so self-evident that no scheme of reparations would ever be workable enough to be worth doing. Maybe a formal study would conclude that the only workable version of reparations would be payments for people like the guy featured in Coates’ article. Would that result be so bad? It wouldn’t be worth $5 million?

Moreover, what is the standard against which we are judging reparations for their efficiency at compensating real injury? In my view, requiring that reparations be more successful at identifying the truly injured and compensating them the appropriate amount than, say, our system of adjudicating small claims, is asking too much. And anyone whose ever been to small claims court knows what rough justice that is. Indeed, if we just gave every self-identifying African-American $20,000, I think you’d end up with a lot of people who get less than what they would have today in the absence of white supremacy, and a smaller number who get more than they would have had otherwise. That sounds like rough justice to me.

The discussion is about reparations for the injuries imposed upon African-Americans by American white supremacy. So the time period is coextensive with that history, beginning with the birth of the nation. (And, let’s be clear, Ta-Nehisi Coates is talking about payments made by the government. He is not talking about descendants of slave-owners paying, except indirectly through taxes or risk of inflation just like everyone else.)

What about everyone else who has been historically subjected to discrimination? Well, the notion is that no one else (save Native Americans) has been so thoroughly oppressed and deliberately impoverished for so long. If you think it is false that African-Americans have been uniquely injured by America, then I would expect you to argue that the Irish or Mexicans, or whomever you have in mind, have as much claim to recompense. But I think you’ll have a pretty difficult time making that argument.

Alternatively, if you think that the severity of the overall injury is an inappropriate distinguishing criterion, then I would expect you to make an argument about why it is inappropriate. But I don’t find it at all persuasive to argue that other people have been injured and not received compensation. Of course that is true. So what? Is it more important to provide some justice for the most extreme case, or ensure that everyone equally receives no justice?

Surely some justice is better than no justice. Perhaps you think that the alternative is something other than no justice–that we could spend a trillion dollars on fixing the public schools as a way to compensate the millions of Americans whose current circumstances were partly determined by past outrages. To that I say: great! Let’s add that as one possible form that reparations could take.

Isn’t there already a cause of action for victims of housing discrimination? This is about lowering the burden of proof and/or increasing the statute of limitations, right? Otherwise people who claim to be suffering would already be able to pursue their claim?

Here in Kansas city about 10 years ago they tried this with “Missouri vs. Jenkins”.

To be brief - the school district of Kansas City Missouri totally sucked. Much of it was the result of white flight so they did this case to try and win some money from the state of Missouri to get some better fudning. They won. why? they proved that 50 years of racial segragation by the state of Missouri caused much of the current problems.

Long run, it basically failed any long term good.

Here is the Executive Summary from the site: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

"For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, “You can’t solve educational problems by throwing money at them.” The education establishment and its supporters have replied, “No one’s ever tried.” In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil–more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers’ salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can’t be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement."

So my point is that any reparations will be useless and more damaging in the long run.

Heh…Cato. Sure…

Having a federal judge run Kansas City’s schools for a couple of years with more funding than average didn’t fix two centuries of discrimination. That means “any reparations will be useless and more damaging in the long run.” Call me crazy, but I think you have a few unstated premises there.

I dare you to make them explicit.

So you give a big chunk of money to one group of people who have really good claims, and another group of people with equally valid claims but less documentation get nothing, and this is supposed to make everything better? Isn’t that just setting up a divide-and-conquer strategy? Get various groups of blacks mad at each other instead of the white man–that doesn’t sound fair, equitable, or even remotely close to rough justice, let alone real justice.

When you are talking about eliminating statute of limitations issues, however (and I think you were the one who brought that up), you ARE talking about payments from individuals to other individuals. You are talking about Peabody Jackson being able to sue the people who did him or his ancestors wrong (or their descendants). The only way around this is to say that the statute of limitations waiver only applies to government actions, and not private individuals or firms, which then gets into lots more thorny issues.

The wrongs were done to individuals. Many or most members of the group called “African-American” suffered thorough oppression for too long, but not every member of that group saw the same kinds, levels, or degrees of oppression. The descendant of free blacks in a northern state had quite a different experience than the descendant of Mississippi slaves, but you want to treat them the same. Some members of that group may have seen little or no oppression compared to that experienced by Hispanics in south Texas, for example, but you are arguing that unoppressed blacks “deserve” reparations that oppressed Mexican-Americans don’t. It seems to me you are erasing individuality in favor of group treatment, and I think that’s a big chunk of what got us into this problem in the first place: seeing “blacks” as a homogenous unit unworthy of individual evaluation.

What makes you think the case Coates cites is the most extreme?

Fixing public schools isn’t a possible form of reparations, because not all public school students are black. Giving money to a lousy school that is overwhelmingly white as “reparations” for slavery doesn’t even make sense–it is certainly not going to make aggrieved blacks feel better or make them more financially secure. At that point, “reparations” has become so divorced from what Coates proposes as to be meaningless.

12 years. And more than triple the funding - more money per pupil than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. And I believe this was in response to your “… spend a trillion dollars on fixing the public schools as a way to compensate the millions of Americans whose current circumstances were partly determined by past outrages” - if you were wondering about relevance.

You might want to double-check your facts, not that they are responsive to my point. Do you think his conclusion follows from his stated premises?

The fact is that the judge compelled the district to throw huge sums of money at a problem that was and is blamed on racial discrimination, and it achieved essentially nothing. The idea of reparations is to throw huge sums of money at the rest of the problems that were and are blamed on racial discrimination. Does that suggest anything to you at all?

Regards,
Shodan

That’s not the idea of reparations, actually. It wasn’t for the Japanese-American detainees, and it wasn’t for German reparations to Jews and Israel. And it wouldn’t be here, if done properly.

I brought up the Kansas City Experiment to demonstrate that throwing money at the education problem doesn’t work. Nothing else was implied. But it does sound like you might want to acquaint yourself with what was done. It is not as you describe.

Now, it can also be used as an example that sometimes even floods of money cannot solve a problem.

If it were done, how much would you like to bet that people would soon be crying, “But it wasn’t enough!”?

Going down that road is unhelpful in the extreme in trying to create a color-blind society. It will have the opposite effect in many ways.

Oh good, more logic fail. Yes, it suggests a number of things. But it does not suggest, much less establish, that “any reparations would be useless and more damaging in the long run.”

And slash2k, I’m not ignoring you. Just don’t want to respond on my phone.

The reparations to the Japanese Americans was only $20,000 per survivor on really was 50 years of stolen property in California real estate probably worth millions today.

That didn’t happen after the Japanese-American detainee reparations, nor after German reparations to Jews and to Israel. Why would it happen in this case?

Welcome to practical justice. You’ve just described every attempt to redress historical wrongs ever.

Why?

I agree that this is closer to a real attack on whether such a scheme is just or not, but it strikes me as still fundamentally about “fit.” Yes, an inevitable consequence of providing recompense to all black people–just one option being discussed here–would mean some individuals benefit when the oppression that they or their forebears experienced was less than some people receiving nothing. But I think the justice of the scheme is properly evaluated as a whole–i.e., at the end of the day do we end up more or less just than we started out. I think it’s hard to argue that overall you end up less just.

I don’t think that.

Ok, then we shouldn’t do it. The point was that I’m letting you choose your own baseline against which to measure the justice of reparations. If you don’t want that baseline to be “do nothing,” then feel free to insert your own proposal.

No, I don’t agree this describes every attempt, nor do I think this is practical justice. This is arbitrary and capricious, which is pretty much the opposite of justice. Whether or not any given individual receives reparations bears no relationship to the level of oppression that individual or his ancestors received, but relies solely on factors outside the individual’s control. Does your family have good records? You get money. Was your grandfather illiterate? You don’t. Did your great-grandmother’s employer keep records? You get money. Did the courthouse in your ancestral county burn down? You don’t.

I mentioned earlier that I don’t think records exist to substantiate the levels of oppression and harm done to most African-Americans over the past centuries. That means only a small percentage of the aggrieved would stand to benefit. How are people NOT in that category supposed to feel about the whole process? Would it promote any grand sense of healing in the black community if ten percent of blacks got money and ninety percent didn’t? Is it supposed to make whites feel better if they give money to a handful and ignore the remainder? What is the goal here?

I’m not sure what you are asking here. Why what?

I think it is pretty easy to end up less just. “Reparations” as explained by Coates seems to amount to little more than taking from some individuals (higher taxes, higher interest rates, less opportunities) who may or may not have had anything to do with the oppression to give to some other individuals who may or may not have suffered continuing ill effects from that same oppression.

Your statement was “Is it more important to provide some justice for the most extreme case, or ensure that everyone equally receives no justice?” What are you terming the most extreme case, if not the one Coates highlighted?

I’d take the position that the most effective measures we can take to provide justice are to provide opportunity for everybody alive today in the U.S., on a “this day forward” basis. It doesn’t matter why your family is poor; we as a society will still make sure you have the opportunity to get a good education, live in a safe house and neighborhood, and be secure in your person and property from any discrimination and institutionalized racism.

When the Japanese-Americas were detained during WWII, there undoubtedly variations in how much they suffered and were harmed – some lost more property than others, some were treated more harshly than others, some were detained for different periods of time, and some lost family members to poor medical care or were even killed by sentries.

It probably couldn’t have been “proved” which ones deserved more or less money.

They all got the same amount in the Civil Liberties Act Amendments of 1992. Was this worse than doing nothing? It’s possible (and probably likely, considering the tens of thousands that were detained) that some who received money were not detained at all (or, perhaps, barely suffered) – does this possibility mean that we should never have tried?

Half a century passed between the Japanese-American interment and this compensation. Half a century ago, policies and practices were in place through much of our country that were meant to prevent black people from taking full and equal part in the economy and society.

I’m not saying reparations are definitely a solution, but at the very least it is reasonable to discuss them. And most of the concerns mentioned, many of which are legitimate, were also present for other instances of reparations.

There is a cause of action for current victims of housing discrimination. There is no cause of action for pre-1968 victims (and in realistic terms there was negligible relief available even to post-1968 victims until about 1980.)

It’s not about lowering the burden of proof or the statute of limitations. Assuming we do adopt some form of reparations, they’d be paid by the government, not by individuals (contrast fair housing actions.) And we don’t know what the burden of proof would be.

No, but it could be proved which ones were actual detainees and which ones weren’t, because they had accurate records. They were recompensed a set amount for being detainees in prison camps. Now, if we had a properly documented number of African Americans, and the proposal were that they be recompensed for a specific program or action, it might be possible to discuss how they might be recompensed. You keep bringing up the Japanese-American internment situation as an example and the facts have backfired in your face every single time-Maybe you should find another example?