Why in the hell does Augusta Country Club have to admit women?

The BBQ Pit
21

OK, now the complicated one. I understood this one pretty well fifteen or twenty years ago when some DC-area clubs were being pressed to admit women; now it’s all pretty vague. (Maybe someone had better holler for a lawyer now, to make sense of the muddle I’m about to make of things. :))

Some ‘private clubs’ are genuinely that: the only reasons you’d be there are if you’re a member, or a guest of a member. (Or if you’re employed by the club, but that’s different.) Other ‘private clubs’ are actually businesses, hosting a variety of public and semi-public functions, making their facilities available to those who want to pay to use them for meetings, banquets, and other events.

Once you open your doors for business, you can’t discriminate by race, sex, creed, national origin, and all that good stuff. IIRC, and I’m hoping I do (where are you, Sua, Jodi, minty, Zappo, etc., etc.? Heeelllllpp!! ;)), if the business functions range far beyond functions that principally serve club members, then the club can’t discriminate with respect to whom they offer those services. And if the line’s sufficiently blurred between the business and the club, then the club itself winds up being regarded as part of the business for nondiscrimination purposes.

Those last two sentences are the part that I’m not sure about the exact logic. But this much is true: some DC-area men’s clubs in the 1970s and 80s, facing the predicament of whether to admit women, grappled with the question of whether to ‘go private’, that is, to run themselves strictly as a private gentlemens’ club, in order to retain their right to remain all-male.

Since we don’t yet have a link, we don’t know what’s actually going on at Augusta. We don’t know what they do that involves nonmembers, other than conducting their famous annual golf tournament. If they don’t cater business luncheons, banquets, etc. involving large numbers of nonmembers, then it’s strictly a moral issue, but they’ve got the right, AFAIK, to do as they please. But if they in fact do these things, then their legal footing may be much shakier than if they catered to members and a relative handful of guests for private occasions.

[sub]C’mon, all you folks who have ‘Esq.’ after your name on your business cards. Jump right in, like I did without the advantage of your expertise and specialized training! :D)[/sub]

22

Oh boy, So now I am a racist, elitist, misogynist moron and A homosexual to boot. LMAO.

Ok, Let me begin here. I am a married man and I love women. I think that they deserve every right that I enjoy as a male.

I just don’t understand why clubs are forced to let women in if they do not want them. I understand that Augusta has not been forced too, but I can see it happening in the near future.

I have never played Augusta and it is not likely that I will. EVER.

Cervaise: Thanks, I was going to start my thread that way, but I thoughy it might be a bit over the top. :wink:

DeniseV, Ukulele Ike & LolaCocaCola I love that because I think that men should be able to have a private club with rules the way they want them, I am now a homeosexual. I’ll just say yes ma’am and shut my mouth from now on.

El_Kabong (love the name by the way), pesch & others. I just feel that a private club funded by private money should be able to take members based on their outline of what is acceptable to them. Their is no reason, IMO, that a woman can’t join a golf club. But I am not a member at Augusta. I rather enjoy playing golf with women. Even if offered a membership I would not join. Those ain’t my kind of peoples. I just feel that it is their right to invite anyone they want and not invite anyone they don’t want.

When it comes down to it. I could give a rats ass if they finally get aound to accepting women.See I just wanted to stir some people up for once. Because as Bob Dylon said, “You’re nobody if you don’t get booed sometime.” (thanks pesch) :slight_smile:

23

By the way, This is my first trip into the BBQ pit and I have to say, It is a little toasty.

24

As RTF pointed out: as long as they are simply running a place to ruin a nice stroll across the lawn with a need to count how often they hit a small spheroid, they are under no legal compulsion to admit women. However, if half the Atlanta skyline was brokered over lunch at their dining room, an exclusive male membership effectively prevents women from participating in those business dealings.

While I would agree that the issue of voluntary association is troubled by any compulsion to open membership, the SCOTUS decided in the mid-1980s that the right of people to have access to participate in business supersedes the right of association when that association is used to exclude individuals from business opportunities.

25

I agree with the point that since it is a private organization “The Club” should be allowed to do whatever it wants. However, to answer your question about why the women want in:

Augusta revolves around the damn golf course. The entire city is brought up around it. You’re raised thinking the Augusta National is the shining glory of any golf course, the ultimate recreation, the only thing our po-dunk little town has that’s worth something. Everyday you pass the course on your way to work, during the tournament you sweat in stupid little tents making nasty cheese sandwiches for rich folk on the turf, and yet, you can’t get to try out this so called “wonderful” sportspot because you don’t have a penis and other various male genitalia? Talk about wiggling the carrot in front of the horse. Please! If I cared for golf, I’d want to be a part of the “elite”, too. :wink:

26

I think your answer may be found here because a similar situation happened here in Fort Worth.

A country club here was once ‘exclusive’ (read: whites only).
It wanted to participate in a golf tournament.

The PGA states that for it to sponsor a game, it must be open to “everyone” (paraphrasing).

So, the Colonial Country Club opened its doors to anyone who could afford it.

I suppose they felt that the prestige of hosting a game was greater than the ‘burden’ of allowing minorities to enter.

So my guess would be that Augusta is looking to sponsor a game, too.
I know that the colonial event brings in big money to the area.

That, or the “men only” idea is not bringing in enough money.

Ultimately, money decides who is allowed in a club or not.

27

I, too, think that if it’s private, and you own it, you should set whatever rules and qualifications you want to admission or membership. I’ve long ago accepted that that’s not legal and one person demanding membership will be awarded it by the courts.

What I don’t get though is the double standard. Men’s only establishments, businesses clubs, etc. are illegal. Women’s only are not. I’m not sure if it’s a national chain or not, but here in Phoenix we have a gym chain called “Naturally Women” that doesn’t allow male members so that women can work out in peace without feeling all “meat marketed”.

That’s fine. That’s great. Whatever. But if someone started a “Men Only” gym, you can bet it wouldn’t be open a week before it was getting picketed, sued and closed or forced to admit women.

Either it should work both ways or none. That’s my only gripe.

28

I have a question - are country clubs really clubs, or are they businesses ? ( I don’t belong to one, so I really don’t know). Do they have owners who make a profit, or are the fees just to cover expenses? There’s a difference in my mind between a group of people owning a golf course as a group and contributing to the expenses of running it, and a profit-making business that simply calls itself a club and its customers members. (video clubs, health clubs)
As to women’s clubs being allowed, but men’s clubs being forbidden-not necessarily. There are still men-only bowling leagues and softball leagues,the Knights of Columbus is still men-only as far as I know, and the Boy Scouts have not been forced to accept girls. ( They do accept them in some programs, but not in others). Those groups are non- profit, and in my experience, anyway, not places where business deals are made. And those two factors may make all the difference.

29

I’m going to start a private club- and exclude GOLFERS.

I HATE golfers, and HATE golf. It is the most elitist, exclusionary sport there is. No Jews, no Blacks, and of course, God forbid, we can’t have chicks on the course either. Fortunately, most country clubs are starting to enter the 21st Century. I just can only imagine how many WASPS out there cringe every time Tiger Woods wins another tournament, I love it! :smiley:

If I may sidetrack- golf is the one sport that pudgy middle aged angry white men are good at, even though its not really a very athletic sport. So, you have a sport that is polluted by BMW driving snobs that can’t stand being around minorities and chicks since they are threatened by them. I’ve been on my share of golf courses- I think many golfers are the biggest f’n jerks there are.

Besides, why would you NOT WANT women on a golf course? Are you gay? I mean I don’t know about you, but after wasting 5 hours of my day sweating my ass off waiting for slowpokes, dealing with drunken middle aged teenagers and trying to get this stupid little white ball into this hole, I wouldn’t mind a little eye candy.

All that said, I do agree with the posters: as a Libertarian, I agree that you have the right to start a club of elitist, exclusionary jerkoffs.

30

Ya promise?

:cool:

31

/me hands Vinnie a Liner 10/0 paintbrush…

Try again, shit for brains.

One point that you were so far off on I feel I have to make further comment: Golf may not provide much aerobic exercise, depending on how you play, but it is very much an “athletic sport”.

IMO, it combines coordination, strength, and rhythm in a way that no other sport does.

So take your “I hate all golfers because they’re BMW driving snobs” diatribe someplace else.

As far as the OP and the original issue is concerned… I don’t have an opinion either way.

32

Do you have any real-life examples of this complaint? Are you aware of any actual women-only clubs where business is conducted over a martini? There is a very long list of men-only clubs where women have never been permitted and where they have never attempted entry. The specific discrimination complain arises when the association is used to prevent women from participating in other, non-club activities such as business deals.

The decision to force such clubs to open their memberships may me right or it may be wrong, but hyperbole that only women can have private clubs is simply an error.

33

**

ummm you mean in addition to The Masters, which they already conduct each year?

Oh, and Vinnie, shut up. You’re stereotyping has all the relevance to this discussion as a sack of smashed assholes and half their reasoning power. Most golfers drive to a public course each day, not in a BMW and change their shoes in the parking lot while sitting in their car because the public course doesn’t have locker rooms.

If you’d take 15 seconds out of your busy schedule of figuring out your home lobotomy kit to actually watch a tournament in which Tiger is playing, you’ll soon realize he’s far and away the most popular player on the tour. I’m sure there are people out there that sweat because a half-black half-thai all minority golfer is kicking everyone’s ass but pretending that they represent a majority of of golfing fans could only be the product of your paranoid crypto-syphillitic ravings.

oh… and:

Your strong support for women’s issues is obvious from your intelligent discussion of the situation.

34

I Googled this news story from Sunday’s Augusta, GA paper.

That led me to the National Council of Women’s Organizations, which is the group calling for the Augusta National Golf Club, as it is called, to admit women as members.

Their letter (in PDF format) to the Augusta National Golf Club basically says “discrimination is wrong, and we’d like you to admit women before the next Masters tournament”. It doesn’t suggest that they have any legal right to be admitted.

Hootie Johnson’s response (also PDF) certainly wasn’t pretty, though. He found the NCWO’s “several references to discrimination” to be “offensive”.

Well, jeez, Hootie, if you’re going to discriminate, at least be a friggin’ man about it. If you’re going to do it, then people are going to bring it up. If you find this offensive, then stop doing it. But don’t come across with this “yeah, we’re discriminating against women, but it’s rude of you to bring it up” bushwa. (Although of course he doesn’t admit to discrimination - simply says that they’re too private to discuss their membership policies.)

What a turkey.

Still, the NCWO hasn’t suggested that women have a legal right to join the Augusta National Golf Club. And if they don’t need to be there because that’s where the movers and shakers meet, then I’ll be damned if I can understand why they want to be more closely associated with the likes of Hootie Johnson than they have to be.

Oh yeah - Hootie’s public response was also a thing of beauty, a masterpiece of overreaction. Gawd, what an idjit.

35

LolaCocaCola: Sure, as long as you stay off my golf course. And take those shoes off and get in the Kitchen. :wink: :smiley:

Vinnie: Wow, I’d like to thank you for taking some of the heat off me. “Eye Candy?” Surely that is the ONLY reason that women want to be let in Augusta. So men can ogle them. And oh yeah, they can be called “chicks” all the time too. They love that.

RTFireFly: I agree, he is a total ass. As a matter of fact, the spokesperson (see I can be PC) of the NCWO sent the letter to him in private, requesting a response in private. But this guy goes and sends his response publicly. hmmmm idjit… yeah that about sums it up.

36

(italics mine)

Do you really think that? If so, I suppose you’re proof that ignorant stereotypes persist on all sides!

I do have to agree with your Libertarian statement about a club’s right to exclude or include whomever they wish, as long, of course, as they are privately run and funded.
For some reason, I find public backlash against/attempts to outlaw a privately funded society that has selective membership more troubling than exclusionary policies of same, in a supposedly free society.
YMMV

37

tomndebb, are you saying that women in women only gyms and spas don’t ever discuss business? You’re wrong.

There’s a whole chain of Women’s Only gyms here in Chicago, as well as “spas for women” and I have been present when business is discussed.

j

38

Vinnie, Vinnie, Vinnie. Of course we want chicks on the golf course, who else is gonna drive the beer cart in a bikini?!?

BF, says, exit stage left before the jarbabyj barrage…

39

Huh? How do you read that I was calling you homosexual? You could make a case that I was calling you misogynist, maybe.

40

posted by Ukulele Ike

Well, this statement seems to imply that I do not like women. But if this is not what you ment. Ok, then that just leaves about 90% of the others who fell this way .
:wink: