Which is how medications should be used.
Unfortunately, some become addicted to them, which means they will never move on.
Could it be the increasing amount of Fructose in the diet?
N=1 but I’ve started being able to laugh again after years of being too depressed to do so since I’ve cut out most fructose containing foods.
Not just HFCS,
Fruit, Vegetables, cane sugar, golden syrup, mable syrup, wheat(fructans can be converted to Fructose in the gut). And of course, all sugar using processed-foods.
Chocolate or enjoying life… it’s a tough decision
I’m not giving up my chocolate.
I wonder if the word “depression” isn’t insufficient to describe the various types of unhappiness/dissatisfaction. I believe the term is used too widely and broadly, and the use is to the disfavor of the truly clinically depressed.
Also, when a designated diagnostic term is available, IME people tend to overlook the severity of that condition. Depression exists along a wide spectrum. At one end, it may represent little more than an unpleasant disposition, or an understandable reaction to external stimuli. At the other end is the person who spends days sobbing in their darkened room - or worse.
I hear a lot of people describe themselves as depressed who have plenty of reason to think their lives suck. That is a far cry from the person who has no reason to see clouds on a sunny day.
There also seem to be many people who consider themselves depressed because they are dissatisfied with their current lives - for any number of reasons. I’m thinking about the middle-class average Joe who is dissatisfied that they are not rich, not an artist or an athlete, not beautiful and loved, or whatever.
And there are a whole lot of people who seem to believe that life oughtn’t be hard and impersonal, or that they are owed something.
IME, both the mental health profession and big pharma manipulate society’s perceptions of pathologies for profit. They purport to be addressing conditions such as depression, when, in fact, they are selling the message that we all ought to be “happy”.
[My bolding] Yes I did. If you wish to argue in favor of your neuroses you get to keep them. My only point is that human psyche is much more malleable and subject to change than is popularly supposed, even for someone who is older. Your choice, always and forever. If you want a rather practical approach you can explore Buddhism if you wish (to name just one alternative).
I found that my depression seemed to stem from a lack of direction or purpose in my life. Also, a lack of understanding of the world and how to manage yourself in it can be major factors. Add to that, not surrounding yourself with the right people (which can be difficult considering all the stupid, ignorant assholes out there) can all add in to the mix.
Now that I’ve found some purpose and have clear career path things are looking better.
I manage my emotions by constantly telling myself how awesome, good-looking, strong, kind, and smart I am. You can laugh, but this is a big part of it I believe. It’s simply an affirmation. The world is constantly trying to beat you down. Your own mind will even do it to you, constantly doubting and criticizing yourself. You have to make a conscious effort to combat that.
I’ve detached myself from a lot of the negative influences in my life as well. This can be tough though, as you don’t always recognize when people are bad for you. It’s only happened to me by a natural falling out, that now I look back and think about how bad these people were to me.
I also think that you have to find your passion. One in particular, learning, is a passion that I think comes naturally to all humans. Once you start to gain somewhat of a real understanding of science, english, politics, and yourself, you become empowered. You crave it even more, and it is never ending because you will never learn too much or understand the universe thoroughly. You just have to break that threshold of understanding before it becomes a real passion. Far too many of our people are below that threshold and are consumed by materialism, entertainment, and lots of minor trivial things that do them no real good.
Of course, money. If you’re broke, it’s pretty damn hard to stay positive. A lot of this country is broke, and they don’t understand why, or how to get out of it. That can be pretty depressing in and of itself.
Honestly, the world is tough, but I think we make it tougher on each other. People need to realize that we need to work together, to help each other out, to help ourselves. There are far too many libertarian/conservative thinking people out there who think that you need to make it on your own, and its wrong to get help from other people or the government. With the right structure in place, we could make things a lot better.
That’s true. Understanding how unbelievably shitty the world and its inhabitants are, can be both scary and depressing.
But, it can also be empowering. If you take into account all of these bad things, and realize how lucky you are (if thats the case), you can consciouly realize how grateful you should be. You can make an effort to consistently remind yourself which can combat depression.
So, I would still rather be intelligent, and understand why I’m depressed, and possibly a way out. Than to be stupid, depressed, and hopeless.
Sometimes I just sing this song to myself over and over…
[TOTALLY SARCASTIC]
Like those diabetics. They’re just so addicted to insulin.
Or heart patients. Man, I tell you, withdrawal from beta blockers and digoxin is brutal.
Why, I’ve seen epileptics who I just knew would have been better off “moving on”, and they could have done it if they’d just stop taking their anti-seizure medications.
[/TOTALLY SARCASTIC]
Depression comes in a lot of forms, and yes, some of those are short, acute bouts which require only enough medication to get the patient through their crisis. Some people don’t even need medication at all.
But there are those of us who spend more days than not battling chronic, unrelenting depression, with bouts that last months or years, and let me tell you, it is most assuredly not a case of addiction, but of necessity. My medications - buproprion and trazadone - are pretty much the reason I’m still alive to type this, as the bout before this one included intrusive thoughts of suicide and self-destruction.
Some medications can create a physical dependency and require careful tapering when going off, but that is not the same as addiction. People don’t take anti-depressants to get high, and anti-depressants don’t directly influence the production or uptake of dopamine. Saying that people who continue to take anti-depressants to treat their depression are addicts is factually wrong and a slap in the face to those of us who continue to struggle with our illness.
Just wanted to pop in and acknowledge this outstanding choice (I was expecting “Don’t Worry, Be Happy”) :).
mmm
Thanks phouka. I was tempted to respond, but I’ve found that people who haven’t been affected in some way tend not to listen to explanations. I think that’s just because they don’t have anything to relate it to so it doesn’t “register.” For example saying that the pain a severely depressed person feels is at least if not more distressing than any kind of physical pain simply sounds like either gibberish or bullshit - at least until it affects them directly.
Well of course you like it. You wrote it!
I’m curious, Dinsdale. Have you ever been depressed or done any serious reading about it? Because all of your questions have answers to them (look up endogenous depression and then see how this differs from “existential angst”.) You are making this out to be a lot more enigmatic than it is.
There may be a lot of people out there with mere existential angst rather than clinical depression. But I need to see some stats before I start thinking there’s a pandemic of misdiagnosed over-drugged people. Anti-depressants aren’t “happy” pills that make you high. I just can’t imagine there’s a whole lot of people popping them who don’t really have a problem. Some, yeah, but not a lot.
This conversation is reminding me about the one we had about ADHD about a year ago. People kept insisting that there must be over-diagnosing going on since so many people seem to have the diagnosis. A lot of people have been diagnosed as obese/overweight too, but few people seem to think all the fatness has been imagined. So IMHO we need a new argument to beat into the ground.
My depression isn’t something that I feel very comfortable talking about (even though I have talked about it to death on this board). On one hand, it’s so unusual that I sometimes don’t even think I have it. I am embarrassed to even say I have it because I don’t want to throw my hat with “them” when I don’t really feel like “them”. When people talk about weights and clouds and grayness and not being able to get out of bed and all that shit, I can’t relate at all. But I can relate to anhedonia, flat affect, avolition, physical agitation, catatonia, suicidal ideation, and hopelessness. Yet get this: I live a middle-class lifestyle! I’m physically healthy, relatively good-looking, smart, employed, and unencumbered by a history of abuse or relationship drama. So does this mean I have no right to be depressed? That my brain chemistry has to be absolutely perfect all the time? That I have no genetic legacy of mental illness? Or a developmental history that was less than ideal? Who decides when my depression is a disease and when it’s just me being a crybaby?
Just because I experience clinical depression from time to time doesn’t mean I’m not grateful for my good fortune, that I’m stuck in the wrong frame of mind, that my character is defective, that I’m a spoiled brat, or that I’m lazy/bored/self-absorbed/stupid. It just means that I have a predisposition towards mental weirdness.
As I was standing in line at the drug store today, I recognized that I actually felt excited that I was getting more of my antipsychotic. But I’m not addicted to anything but the relief I experience now that my thoughts are no longer looping incessantly and that I can move without being embarrassed. This med is the only thing I’ve taken that has been able to get me to this point. Yoga hasn’t done it. Talking to someone hasn’t done it. Eating leafy green vegetables and drinking plenty of water hasn’t done it. So I take the pill, damn what the judgmental jury thinks. I’m sure they would think much differently if they could walk in my shoes for just a few minutes.
I realize that I’m describing something that is not depression. Maybe you make some kind of special exception for people who have “clear” mental illness, rather than that “wishy-washy” depression junk. But in my mind, all of it’s the same. You can’t just look at a person and their external circumstances and decide they aren’t really sick. Unless you take a walk in their shoes, you don’t and CAN’T know.
Bullshit.
Clinical depression is not a neurosis, and the whole philosophy of neuroses is back-dated Freudian/Jungian post hoc ergo propter hoc psychobabble with no standing in medical science.
Your insistence that depression can be cured if those who suffer from it would just try a little harder, think happy thoughts, and DECIDE to get better is no different from telling someone with an open fracture the same thing. Depression is a physical illness, a dysfunction of the brain, correlated with neurotransmitter imbalances, differences in brain architecture, other illnesses, and more than one questionable gene. It is not the lack of a life philosophy or the unwillingness to make a change. No one chooses depression, not even in little slippery slope steps.
This rush of baseless speculation on what is a painful, debilitating illness is really disheartening for me. It’s like you can’t even be bothered to listen to the experiences of those who actually have it. You’d rather wrap yourself up in self-righteous explanation of what’s wrong with those other people that clearly you, yourself, got right.
Go talk about the latest in postmodern ennui or the time you wrestled with your inner existential angst, but for God’s sake, leave those of us suffering from a real disease alone.
Phouka, I’m not going to say that clinical depression is not a real diagnosis. I can respect the understanding of chemical imbalances along with other factors that can lead to this condition. I’ve struggled with depression myself. I doubt it was as severe as what you may be discussing, but I was pretty down in the dumps.
Lately, I’ve felt a lot better than I ever have. I’m finally headed in a direction I want to take career-wise. I’ve seperated myself from a lot of negative people and surrounded myself with positive people. Now, instead of saying “I fucking suck. I hate myself. Why does life suck so bad?” I replaced it with, “I’m a kind, confident, easy going and good looking dude.” Or simply “I’m a beast.” I also have learned about a lot of the struggles others go through and when compared with mine, realize how lucky I am. I’ve changed my diet and exercise regularly (even though I did that back then too.)
When I do all these things, I feel better. What kind of role do you feel these interventions play in combating depression? How is this more/less effective than drug therapy?
I’d like to hear from anybody else with an opinion on the matter as well.
Tupac: There’s no doubt that even when talking about depression in the sense of something that has a neurological, biochemical basis that there are non-drug methods of altering one’s biochemistry. Being around loved ones probably stimulates the release of oxytocin for example - you can probably even add dopamine to the list. I’ve heard a lot of people say that exercise helps too. My ex said it was the release of endorphins but I think even people who just do moderate exercise see a benefit.
However it’s one thing to say that there things besides drugs that can help and quite another to say that drugs aren’t ever necessary. That’s especially so when you consider that depression tends to be self-reinforcing. You don’t take pleasure in the things or people you loved and the idea of exerting yourself for any reason becomes a distant memory.
As to whether or not someone needs drugs indefinitely or not, I don’t think anyone knows the answer to that. For example if your depression resulted from elevated cortisol levels over a period of years due to uncontrolled stress, then there have almost certainly been significant neurological changes in your brain. Elevated levels of cortisol for example have probably have probably caused the atrophy of your hippocampus. This is really brain damage for all intents and purposes. Whether or not you can ever recover from that is an open question.
Forget it. Some people are just determined to believe in the whole, “anti-depressants are just happy pills! They’re just a crutch!” (But I always want to ask these people – so if you saw a guy with a broken leg using a crutch, would you yank it away from him and tell him to just suck it up and walk without it?)
It really is totally my opinion, but I think far too many fail to distinguish between transitory unhappiness (having a bad day), situational depression (objectively there is much suckitude in your life), and endogenous depression (your brain chemistry is out of whack).
We all have a bad day once in awhile, from the example given above to something like suffering a serious injury. It makes sense that you’d be unhappy about breaking your leg and the aggravation that comes with it. It makes sense you’d be unhappy about pigeon crap in your hair and food stains on your favorite silk shirt. If, at the end of such a day, someone say’s “I’m depressed” most of understand that as “my day sucked” but it’s not depression in the medical sense.
Some people have a craptastic life. This may be long or short term. I think this sort of depression is most ammenable to non-drug solutions. When I was suffering long-term unemployment I definitely displayed some symptoms of depression, but that wasn’t due to brain chemistry it was due to real external problems like severe shortage of money, continual rejection in seeking employment, how was I going to pay the rent and buy food, and so on. Being unhappy at all that is entirely reasonable. The question is, how are you going to deal with it? I deeply resented all the people who diagnosed me (entirely unqualified people I add) and told be to take pills to “cure” my problem. Those pills don’t help people with normal brains who are in a suck situation. What did help me was all those non-drug things they tell you about - keeping to a regular schedule, eating healthy food, getting exercise, connecting with people, and so on. All of which elevated my mood and kept me functional so I could work on the cause of my bad feeling: lack of income. Funny thing, once I solve that problem those bad feelings went away overnight. Why? Because I had eliminated the cause instead of doing nothing about the cause and medicating the symptoms.
This is in contrast to someone like my oldest sister who’s brain chemistry wasn’t normal. Nothing external helped her though she tried for years and actually, for years, was one of those high-functioning middle class depressed people. Eventually, her depression killed her. Maybe if there had been some drug available adjust her brain chemistry back to something close to normal (she died before the advent of SSRI’s) she’d still be here.
I guess my biggest concern is not the people who have a bad day, or even with the people who have abnormal brain chemistry for whom medication can be effective, even if it must be lifelong (see prior comparison with diabetes in a prior post), but rather the people who are depressed due to external forces who are medicated rather than helped to solve the causes of their depression. That’s not to say medication can’t play a role - it is a tool in the toolbox - but for them fixing the causes should be more important than life-long appeasing of their symptoms. Unfortunately, between the meme that people can’t change (untrue. It’s hard to make real changes but it can be done if there is sufficient motivation and support) and the ease of handing out pills fixing the causes is seldom seriously addressed.
Broomstick, good post.
I think one thing that complicates your dichotomy (brain versus circumstance) is that being depressed can contribute to the circumstances that make for unhappiness. Like, the guy who is fired from his job because he’s always in a foul mood and can’t meet deadlines (concentration problems, somnolence, crying jags, etc.). Then he loses his wife and gets evicted. He shows up on your front door with a whole roster of “good” reasons to be upset, but fix them all and there’s still the underlying mental illness to clean up.
This was how I knew I was sick and not just suffering from the context I had found myself in. I thought living in hot-ass Miami was the ultimate cause of my depression and that if I just returned to temperate weather with less physically demanding work, I would be alright. But I ended up plunging into the pits even deeper.
Thank you.
Well, that’s why it takes a really good medical/mental history and a trained person some time to make a correct diagnosis. If someone has shown a long-term pattern of depressive symptoms that’s different from someone who was fine until something bad happened.
In your own case, you took an action that, had your depression been related to your location as you suspected, would have helped but it didn’t. Presumably, instead of moving again you then sought a different answer to the question “what is making me feel like this?”.
There is also the problem that a long-term depression due to situational causes might lead to an alteration of brain chemistry resulting in endogenous depression, or patterns of behavior and habits that maintain rather than mitigate depression.
Even for people with endogenous depression, non-drug techniques can be a useful addition to their toolbox. Proper eating, exercise, regular schedules, social connections, etc. will not cure them but it can make their treatment more effective. It’s not strictly an either-or problem, the mind and body are connected, and there’s nothing wrong with a multi-pronged approach.