Doesn’t it get exhausting misrepresenting what other posters say? I don’t see where I blame the US for everything. But a proximate cause of the Iranian revolution was oppression by the Shah and resentment over the favored status of the upper classes who were protected by the Shah. You seem to think the revolution would have happened anyway. You are certainly welcome to think so. But I’m not convinced.
Anyhow, this is all a hijack. The main point of my example is that some people in this thread are saying the US supports Israel because Israel is a democracy. I was merely pointing out that democracy is no guarantee of US support, as the US has a long and extremely inglorious history of toppling democracies and installing pro-Western dictators. The Shah is only one example among many.
Israel is a better ally than many of the countries the U.S. is allied with. Take France, for example. France is generally a U.S. ally, but that hasn’t stopped France from causing trouble for the U.S. in Vietnam or Africa. It hasn’t stopped France from selling weapons to American enemies like Iran and Iraq.
All countries put their own interests first. If it’s in their interest to modify their behaviour to maintain an alliance, they will do so. If it’s not, they won’t.
There are only a handful of countries that can be counted on to march in lock-step when the chips are down - Canada, Great Britain, the U.S., and Australia, plus a few more smaller countries. But even the closest allies will have issues that cause friction. For example, being a strong ally of the United States hasn’t stopped Canada from opposing the U.S. on various trade issues, from failing to keep up its NATO commitments, and electing very anti-American leaders from time to time.
Israel is no different. But what makes Israel a very good country to be allied with its its location. Being friends with a modern democracy in a strategically critical place full of dictatorships is extremely important. Israel shares much intelligence with the U.S. Israel carries out a lot of the dirty work that benefits the free world. Having Israel as an ally means having eyes and ears and boots on the ground in a very difficult region of the world.
Paul and Elendil bot h have it right. (And Paul, you may enjoy Chabon’s recent Yiddish Policeman’s Union for one alt history, btw).
Truman could have gone either way actually. Allegedly he was swayed by lobbying from his old (and Jewish) former partner in the haberdashery businesss to meet with Chiam Weizmann (to become Israels’ first President) and the rest is history. Others have a more cynical view that Truman was indeed just fishing for critical votes. (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/zion_2003_07_21.php3)
In any case the lines became drawn when despite the socialist leanings of many early Zionists, the Communist block supported Arab sides. Cold War and all. The US had to have its ally in the area too. And again local politics. Jews may not be too populous but they had more numbers and domestic political clout than Arabs had. And were “more like us” in the minds of most Americans. Add in the scrappy underdog surviving, prospering, against overwhelming odds, after nearly being exterminated as a people, the stability of a reliable friend, shared values, the bloodthirsty comments made by Arab leaders (“the sea will run red with Israeli blood” etc … )
No, that’s true; we mostly got out of the business of toppling democracies by the 80s. After that, it was mostly a matter of making sure our favorite dictators stayed in power. Like Mobutu Sese Seko, for example. He was a real sweetheart. For example,
Yet Reagan described Sese Seko as “a voice of good sense and goodwill,” and during the Carter regime, according to Wikipedia, “Zaire was the recipient of nearly half the foreign aid Carter allocated sub-Saharan Africa.” So yeah, I think its safe to say that the US cares a lot more about strategic advantage than it cares about democracy and human rights.
Yes that is an odd thing. For every $X Israel gets, Egypt gets some percentage of X. Part of the Camp David deal. We are paying Egypt to play nice. It is a lot of money, but it has spared a lot of blood.
The Yiddish Policeman’s Union is on wish list. This despite my supernatural avoidance of most things Alaska.
That might be a debate for another thread, but I’ve never heard of Israel described as anything less than a robust, Western-style democracy, ever since its establishment. It has its own problems and issues, of course (probably more than most countries), but does anyone really think it is or ever was an autocracy or one-party state?
Israel has a refreshingly uninhibited way of dealing with terrorists that we in the west do not .
Would we have taken out the Iraqi nuclear facility so swiftly without all the bleeding heart "gliberals"wringing their hands ?
I wonder who it will be that has to stop the Iranian Revolutionary guard from going that little bit too far ?(without arranging a massive multination invasion force followed by an equally massive and prolonged occupation of the country)
The people who hold enmity for them tend to be people who with or without any support for Israel are hostile to OUR way of life.
When they take casualties its often in place of our own people.
I’ll just add my usual disclaimer that I am not only not an Israeli or Jewish but have actually been questioned by the Israelis and deported from Israel so I most definitely am not a spokesman for them.
Well, you have to admit, that helps. But part of the resaon Mapai controlled so much was because it (or the Labour Unity Party, at least), was the party of the majority of the old settlers, and Labor Zionism was the majority ideology of the Zionist movement. Rvisionist and General Zionism were minority movements.
And of course, another reason for Mapai’s long preeminence was that Ben Gurion was willing to form a coalition with almost everyone.
Israel is our friend. You stick with your friends. You don’t let anyone fuck with your friends. No, we don’t give them commands like they are our dogs. They can disagree as freinds do. But when the chips are down, Israel is there with us, and we stand with them.
A better question to the OP is why SHOULDN’T Israel be our ally? They mind their own business and wish to simply exist. They are surrounded by the very terrorist assholes who attacked us on 9/11. We have a common interest, and they are a good people. Do we need another reason?
This quote by itself shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Israel doesn’t mind its own business; it has been the policy of every Israeli government, liberal or conservative, since 1967 to build and expand settlements in the occupied territories, a move which might as well be designed to hamstring any possible peace process with the Palestinians.
