Why is Israel a U.S. ally?

[marshmallow]

@Plan B

When was the last time we did that [orchestrate a coup against a democracy]? Who was POTUS at the time?

We attempted it in 2002 in Venezuela and it worked for about a day, but then the popular resistance was too much and the plan failed. George W. Bush was POTUS. I wouldn’t be too surprised if we tried again soon (maybe Mrs. Clinton will finish the job).

More controversially, some claim that the 2004 Haitian coup was directed and backed by the U.S. and France. Aristide and some eye witnesses claim he was forced at gunpoint by U.S. marines to leave the country after signing a letter of resignation under duress. I’m not really sure either way, since the evidence seems a little weak. I have the feeling if something like that happened we probably didn’t plan, finance, or help with the logistics of the coup itself – we sorta found out about it and scrambled to make it as smooth a transition as possible. But I dunno, we might have to wait several more years for those papers to be declassified (although with all these new secrecy laws, maybe not).

@Sam Stone

Israel is a better ally than many of the countries the U.S. is allied with. Take France, for example. France is generally a U.S. ally, but that hasn’t stopped France from causing trouble for the U.S. in Vietnam or Africa.

My knowledge of Vietnam and African wars are sketchy at best, beyond the basics. I’d be interested to hear how you think France caused the U.S. trouble in those two theaters.

It hasn’t stopped France from selling weapons to American enemies like Iran and Iraq.

I guess I don’t see the big shock here, since every major power, including pretty much the entire western world, including the U.S., played both sides of the conflict for financial gain. Saddam Hussein wouldn’t have even had chemical weapons to rain down on the Iranians if it weren’t for help from companies in the U.K, Germany, France, Canada, and the U.S. Even Italy got in on the action. Plus our government helped Saddam Hussein with intelligence.

Or maybe you’re referring to the post Gulf War weapons selling? I have a difficult time with this, since the world of weapons dealing is pretty crazy. It seems anyone will sell guns to anyone else no matter the situation, it seems. Hell, right now the U.S. is officially arming and funding groups which are killing our own soldiers. Talk about nuts. That’s like, self-treason, or something.

[UltraVires]

@Sophistry and Illusion

This quote by itself shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Israel doesn’t mind its own business; it has been the policy of every Israeli government, liberal or conservative, since 1967 to build and expand settlements in the occupied territories, a move which might as well be designed to hamstring any possible peace process with the Palestinians.

I love this “occupied territories” idea. They have had them since 1967. That’s 40 years. When does it become their own territory?

Can we say that Great Britian is an “occupied territory” since they were conquered by the Normans in 1066?

Maybe the US is an “occupied territory” since we drove off the last free natives 110 years ago?

And your contention that every government tries to expand settlement isn’t even true. Remember the forced removal of Israeli settlers a couple of years ago for “peace”? How did that work out?

The US is hurting our friend Israel by pretending that they are engaged in a civilized war. Israel is engaged in a war with animals who use their women and children as bombs to blow up civilians.

[Sitnam]

@Sophistry and Illusion

Israel doesn’t mind its own business; it has been the policy of every Israeli government, liberal or conservative, since 1967 to build and expand settlements in the occupied territories, a move which might as well be designed to hamstring any possible peace process with the Palestinians.

Or the settlers were meant to be bargaining chips from the outset…much easier to give up land that didn’t belong to them in the first place. Israel will do anything to continue to exist, Palestine is the one making this a zero sum game.

[Sophistry_and_Illusion]

@jtgain

I love this “occupied territories” idea. They have had them since 1967. That’s 40 years. When does it become their own territory?

Not even Israel claims the occupied territories are part of Israel. And for a good reason. Israel knows that if it annexes the occupied territories, they either have to grant Israel citizenship to the people living there or ethnically cleanse the territories. Neither of these possibilities is a viable option.

So yes, they are occupied.

[Sam_Stone]

@marshmallow

My knowledge of Vietnam and African wars are sketchy at best, beyond the basics. I’d be interested to hear how you think France caused the U.S. trouble in those two theaters.

The Vietnam war was a direct result of the failure of French Colonialism in Vietnam, leading up to the French loss at Dien Bien Phu. This led to the partitioning of Vietnam, with the U.S. taking the side of the South. Some have argued that U.S. support of the French position led them to reject Ho Chi Minh’s overtures in the 1950’s, when it seemed that he was amenable to moving to a democratic system. Instead, he got the support of the Soviets and Chinese, and a Communist regime arose in North Vietnam. Granted, this is a controversial subject.

As for Africa and the Middle East, French Colonialism in Africa has caused a lot of problems, helped build a radical insurgency in Algeria, and many claim that France has some responsibility for the genocide in Rwanda by arming the Hutu, leaving the Tutsi defenseless, and then refusing to intervene when genocide started.

Last but not least, France has been acting as arms supplier to the ‘other side’ in the middle east for a long time. While some people have accused the U.S. of arming Saddam, it really didn’t - a few helicopters that were supposed to be used for medical purposes, a few light trucks, and things of that sort. France, on the other hand, was a major supplier of military weapons to Saddam Hussein.

In fact, France has generally been on the Arab/Muslim side of the middle east conflict since WWII, opposing U.S. policy and taking sides against the U.S. during the Arab/Israeli wars and the cold wars between them in the middle east, supplying arms to Egypt, Libya, and other countries. France harbored the Ayatollah Khomeini while it was clear that he was planning a coup againt the American-backed Shah of Iran.

And don’t forget that France built the Osirak nuclear reactor for Saddam Hussein, against the protestations of the U.S., Britain, Israel, and a host of other supposed allies. I can’t imagine how much more dangerous the world would be today if that reactor had come online.

I didn’t mean to be overtly critical of France, because every great power follows its own interests and allies itself with others when it is convenient. My point was to show that as allies go, Israel is a pretty good one, and if two nation’s interests sometimes collide and they act against each other, this does not mean that they cannot be ‘allies’ where their interests converge, just as France is considered an ‘ally’ today, despite often causing the U.S. big problems.

[MichaelQReilly]

I wanted to add to the they’re our ally because they’re our ally sentiment. When it comes down to it, the Israelis are pretty much just like us. Aren’t the people who’s society and values are essentially the same as yours the people that you want to be allies with? The fact that the Israelis have had to get dragged down in to the mud to a certain extent in order to protect themselves from hordes of loons dedicated to their annihilation is no reason to not stand by them.

[Supirior_Savior]

What’s with all this unquestioning belief in the media to report unbiased facts and not warped oppinion pieces presented as true, all of a sudden? When they tell you Israelies are the veritable Jewish Nazis, rounding up and starving palestinians in little camps, do you really thing that’s all the facts? I could list some ‘slip ups’ in reporting over the years, but the website AISH does it far better, just google it and you’ll find whay i’m talking about in the HUGE section on media (not too unbiased itself, but I’ve checked up on some of it’s claims, which have all turned out to be sickeningly true).

That isn’t to say that Israel hasn’t done some things over the years that other nations would consider terrible, but you have to cut them a little slack, I mean, they have been pretty placid for a state in a constant state of war from all sides since it’s inception, especially when you compare it’s reaction to dayly bombings to say, America’s reaction to one single instance of non-state funded terrorism (invading 2.5 countrys, filling it’s people with dread and locking away it’s own citizens without trial).

[DSeid]

Just a brief request to focus on the op’s request for the Realpolitik reasons. The ethics of occupation, media biases, etc. are fodder for other threads. Many other threads.

I addressed the Cold War issues. After that, after the end of Cold War concerns, Realpolitik interests tell you that one reliable friend in a critical region is worth quite a few possible ones. Also an Israel weak enough to tempt another full scale traditional military attack by one or more Arab neighbors would be an Israel that subtracts from regional stability. And less regional stability means more threat to global oil production and therefore world economies. (Which is one of the reasons that toppling Hussein’s Iraq was stupid even from a Realpolitik POV, btw. A strong Iraq was a counterbalance to Iran. Removing it as a counterweight has made the region a much more dangerous place for us all.)

[BrainGlutton]

@jtgain

They are surrounded by the very terrorist assholes who attacked us on 9/11.

:rolleyes: You do understand, do you not, that not all Arabs and not all Muslims are terrorists? And that the 9/11 hijackers are all dead? And that most of them were not Palestinians, Jordanians or Syrians, but Saudi Arabians (our allies)?