I’m guessing that somebody misheard her saying that “Dumbo beat the bitch!”
Yes and no. It was originally completely non-derogatory (other than the very attenuated “who are you to decide what the geographic reference point is?” academic argument). Demands to change a perfectly good language need (I argue; YMMV) something more than personal preference; at least that’s where critiques of PC come from. People got annoyed when the quite-justifiable demand to substitute “colored” or “Negro” (both terms that many black leaders found quite unobjectionable years ago) for the clearly-offensive N word were followed by demands to go to “black” ('60s), “Afro-American” (70s), then “African American” – the annoyance compounded by the fact that the new “bad” term was often the old “good” term that the same group had contended for.
Sorry, obviously hijack. Back to Sambo.
IIRC, and if Geo. MacDonald Fraser is to be trusted, many in the British Empire were fairly liberal (that is, illiberal) in referring to any pigmented people as “blacks” or “colored” or worse. I certainly seem to recall Flashman referring to various persons not of any African lineage as “n_____s.” Maybe the Raj-era authoress of Sambo had the same usage – certainly some Indians can be a very dark brown color.
I don’t see that “Oriental” is any more specific, as the term has a very long history of being used to refer to “regions lying to the east of the Mediterranean, the ancient Roman Empire, or the early Christian world; of or relating to the Near, Middle, or Far East” (OED). Historically it was more strongly associated with “Near” than “Far” – the famous Orient Express was so named because it went all the way to Istanbul. More recently the term “Oriental” is most often used to refer specifically to the Far East, but “Asian” is commonly used in just the same way (at least in the US). If I were to say “My friend Jenny is Asian” I don’t think anyone would assume I meant she was Afghani.
Considering that both “Oriental” and “Asian” can apply to a very broad area, I’d consider “Asian” more useful. This is partially because at least it refers to a real geographic region, but mostly because it is the term preferred by the people to whom it applies (again, at least in the US). If greater specificity is needed, “East Asian” is unlikely to cause offense and is more clear than “Oriental” without taking any longer to say.
Interesting that you use that as an example. The term “Oriental rug” can apply to carpets produced across a wide geographic area, but is most strongly associated with Persian (Iranian) and Turkish carpets. That’s the Near East, not the Far East. There are Chinese and Tibetan carpets that are known as Oriental rugs, but Oriental rugs aren’t traditionally associated with, say, Japan.
Speaking of Japan, when I was in Okayama I happened to be staying near the Okayama Orient Museum. This museum is home to a collection of artifacts not from Japan or China, but from places like Iran, Iraq, and Syria.
I wouldn’t count Goldilocks, it’s about her hair, not her skin color, but you are right with Snow White.
As for the Asian/Oriental thing, it’s enough that I expect my friends to say “Asian”, and will give them a funny look if they say Oriental, though I don’t get irritated. It’s a matter of respect among friends, IMO.
Other than that, I don’t really care. I’ve even gotten used to introducing myself as E. Indian, since “Indian” seems to be now Native American.
What do you mean, “Asian” features? India, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Japan, China, Indonesia, the Philippines, Siberia, hell, Saudi Arabia and Jordan and TURKEY, fer goodness sake, are all in ASIA. There is no such thing as “Asian” features.
But that’s just being obtuse: when someone says Asian, the vast majority of the time he is shortening *East *Asian, and if he weren’t, he would be more specific. No one, in common parlance, calls Kyrgyzstanis “Asian”. And while it would be better to know the person’s country of origin, that’s not always feasible; I personally cannot reliably tell the difference between a Japanese person and a Korean person any more than I could differentiate between a Dane and a Swede. Anyone who takes offense at a more general term being substituted for an unknown specific one, where people would obviously know what features he’s talking about is being unnecessarily argumentative.
I mean, I, as a Southerner would not be offended if someone called me a “Yank” or “Yankee” (even though those terms are not directly equivalent with the “Asian” example because they’re using an incorrect specific term instead of a general one, like calling Peruvians “Mexicans”).
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
But is it incorrect to refer to Peruvians and Canadians and Mexicans as “Americans”?
I have one page left from my copy of Little Black Sambo. I assume that it is from the 1940s. No later than that. The illustrations are by Ethel Hays. The characters look very Americanized except the mother looks like a young Aunt Jemima. She has the scarf in her hair and the hoop earrings. The skin tones are not as dark as in the linked story, but they are darker than the Indians I know. Their hair is like the untreated hair of African Americans. The lips are not exaggerated. No one is drooling. There is a lot of white in the eyes, but I find that true in illustrations of whites in children’s books too. The characters are pleasant and attractive.
Generally the white characters in Fables are complete psychopaths. Cinderella’s sisters are vain and greedy. Snow White’s step-Mother wants to kill her for being prettier than her. Hanzel and Gretyl are idiots, who find themselves in the Black Forest running from a cannibal. Ariel in the original ends up as sea foam when she finds out that her prince charming has no interest in marrying her and that’s she’s just a flight of fancy, a dalliance.
Sambo’s just all around awesome, and so is his Mother compared to those degenerate rejects in the European fable land. While we’re at, so is Brer Rabbit.
Oriental? Not a big fan of the term but have we forgotten this zinger?
“I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live.” - Senator John McCain
But of course he was only referring to his captors. That’s cool. I’m sure if he got robbed by a couple of Black folks and said “I will hate those niggers as long as I live,” it’ll all be dandy too.
Great, because we don’t already have enough anti-McCain threads.
Now this is just silly. Generally there aren’t that many Asians around in a group, unless you go to temple or something. Of course it’s easier to say “Asian”. And i’m pretty at home with brown these days, too, though I don’t expect anyone to know that before I’ve told them.
If I’m going to get upset over someone calling me Asian, or E. Asian, or Indian…I’d be here all day. I even patiently correct the Hindu/Hindi thing. (Hindi is the language. Hindu is the people.)
Please, either discuss Black Sambo or take your McCain stuff away. I don’t mean to be rude, at all, but I am so sick unto death of hearing about McCain and Obama I could throw up. There are a zillion threads for it.
The problem is that it’s far from universal. The idea that Asian should be used in place of Oriental comes from one student group at a California university in the 1970s or 80s and has (as far as I can tell) spread more rapidly among whites than Asians.
You say in a later post that you look at your friends funny if they say Oriental instead of Asian. My stepmother is Korean and uses Oriental to describe herself and her friends. When I use Asian instead, she looks at me funny (not because she objects, but because it’s not the word she’s used to.) When they were first together and I naively told my dad that he shouldn’t call her Oriental, I think she thought I was crazy. I don’t want anyone to look at me funny when I talk (especially about my family!) What should I do?
She’s a first generation immigrant, but she’s been in the US for several decades and raised two children (of her own) here. She’s active internationally in Korean and Korean-American business and cultural organizations. The fact that she had never even heard of the idea that Oriental is offensive until I (a white person) told her (through my dad) says to me that it isn’t worth worrying about.
Well the OP was discussing a fake quote of McCain’s VP nominee using a racially charged term. I gave an example of a real quote said by McCain that is unambiguously racist. I admit that the actual question asked was more about the term “Sambo”, but half the thread’s about Bearflag’s mom using the term “oriental”, so I don’t think my minor hijack was quite as bad as your kneejerking may indicate.
No, I remember that and I also remember (or seem to) that even after apologizing on air, and being more or less absolved, he blurted out (as the closing credits rolled) “but you know, I still hate those gooks!” I won’t vouch for not having enhanced that memory, but something like that happened.
I give a free pass though to anyone who was tortured for five years. Maybe not mine to give, but so be it.
Just…to be aware that some people don’t like Oriental. I’ve had too many people say, essentially, “Well, I’m going say Oriental no matter what, and anybody who doesn’t like it is oversensitive.” Maybe, maybe not, but that’s not really the politest way, and I see no reason why one should not try to be polite.
That’s your family, and you should call them what they prefer, as much as possible.
One more thing…the main reason why I look at my friends funny is because I am definitely not “Oriental”, leastways I don’t think so. I’m E. Indian! Asian might fit me, though the title is really for E. Asians. Oriental certainly doesn’t!
Greay area, you’re right that the OP started with the whole political thing. My apologies, I thought this was mostly a Black Sambo thread.
Oh, don’t worry, I agree with you about politeness. I typically say Asian out of habit anyway, and I don’t know anyone who objects to it. But I’m more likely to use it for someone from eastern Asia. If I didn’t know you were specifically Indian, I’d probably describe you as South Asian (or say something more circumlocutious, like, “She looks like someone from India or Pakistan, or somewhere in that area, but I don’t actually know where her family is from”). Unfortunately, both Oriental and Asian almost always, in the US, refer to people from southeastern Asia, and there really isn’t a good one-word descriptor for folks from teh rest of the continent. Either, Asian or Oriental could refer to India; they just usually don’t.
As a matter of fact, I DO think people who object to Oriental are oversensitive, but I’d never actually SAY so!
I had a coworker named Cletus who would clarify with “Indian with the dot or the feather?”
I remember the pancake house and the story of Little Sambo that went with it. The one where we went to as kids has been through a lot of different owners, I think it’s a Denny’s now. I never knew why they disappeared so quickly, but it makes more sense as an adult.
Which a very America-centric point of view. In the UK “Asian” generally means coming from around the India/Pakistan region. Also “Oriental” isn’t seen by everyone (including a large amount of people from the far east) as being offensive, that concept is seen more as an American import, almost like people being told what to be offended by.
Personally, I don’t like the term “Oriental”. I wouldn’t be offended if someone described me as “Oriental”(especially if he/she is older, British, or didn’t get the memo otherwise) but it still rubs me the wrong way. I think of it on par with “negro” in that it’s not outright offensive, but still grating to those that belong to that group because of the unflattering historical associations.
Quite frankly I don’t even understand why I have to justify this. Yes we all know that political correctness is so 90s, but if Asians want to be called Asians and not Orientals, then what’s the problem? Maybe you think it’s silly, but hey it’s not up to you to decide. Hell maybe I am oversensitive but quite frankly I find the idea of non-Asians thinking “pfft those silly Orientals, they want to be called Asians now. That’s cute, I guess I’ll humor them,” fairly patronizing. And I find your “But my best friend is Black” argument stale.
Anaamika, don’t worry about it. I’m getting pretty tired of those Palin threads too.
So here’s the solution. If you see someone who looks Asian, and they’re over 40, call them Oriental. But if you see someone who looks Oriental, and they’re under 40, call them Asian.
