Why would the act of lying, fibing, telling an untruth be considered for a commandmen?
Misleading someone with words, trying to make one think something when you mean something else. Whats the problem?
It may not be moral to lie. It may not be fair, but sinful? Because I deceive I may be doing myself harm in the future, in terms of retribution, but how am I going against God. Assuming I believe in God, why should I think I am a sinner if I lie? Is it the deception of a fellow human being?
What is it about the string of words resulting in a lie that is so bad?
Um, you might reread them Commandments. There’s a difference between “bearing false witness against your neighbor” (sin) and telling your wife she looks skinny or claiming you were a hitman for the CIA (not necessarily sins, and in some cases, perhaps laudable).
I should temper my previous response, at least based on what I just found in the R.C. Catechism, which seems to allow less latitude for “harmless” lies than I might have imagined, but which (based on the “intention” and “harm” language, still allows you to tell your wife she’s not fat):
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.
2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another’s reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.
Exodus 23:7 “Keep far away from a false matter (i.e. a lie).”
Leviticus 19:11 "Ye shall not steal; neither shall ye deal falsely, nor lie one to another. "
Leviticus 19:16 forbids talebaring, even if true, surely if false.
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Would you want to be misled? Would you want to be made confused as to someone else’s true intent? If you don’t want it done to you, don’t do it to others.
There is a famous story (often told, but I’m going to tell it again) about a potential convert who came to Shammai [one of the leading Rabbis of his day, about 100 BCE] and asked to be taught the entire Torah while standing on one foot. Shammai, who was notoriously short-tempered, figured that the potential convert was mocking him and chased him away. He later went to Hiller (Shammai’s peer) and repeated his request. Hillel accepted. When the man was standing on one foot, Hillel told him “That which you don’t want done to you, do not do unto others. That is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary - go and learn it.”
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How are you going against God if you break into someone’s house and steal his DVD player? You’re not, but I’m sure you can agree with me that stealing is wrong, no?
Surely I don’t need to elaborate the harm that can potentially come from a lie, do I?
ZEV - I am familiar with that particular adage about the Rabbis and the one footed man. My wife is Jewish and I have heard just about all old adages, and sayings and lore etc…etc… from her mother. She is a QJM…“Quintessential Jewish Mom” I love her to peices.
I consider myself a moral man. One who lives by a certain code of rules that I feel are correct for me. Honesty and moral prowess rank right up their on the ethereal throne. The reason I chose lying out of all the deceitful things a human can do, is because there are so many tiers and facets to a lie.
In a way, there are lies that form the very fabric of parts of our society. For instance the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and the most famous of them all Santa Claus.
All in good fun and faith right? Faith…hmmm.
Greck said:
Parents toil over when to tell their children thereis no Santa Claus, or Easter Bunny. Why toil? Why not tell them the truth from the get go? Maybe because you don’t want it t be YOUR to tell all his little kindergardner friends that there is no Santa, Easter Bunny, etc…etc…For fear of being chastised that you are not the good parent for keeping the lie going.
I know this is an extreme answer, or even point - and yes I will support the network of holiday joy with the spirit of Santa Claus with my children - and the EB and TF. My wife and I are thinking very seriously about how we want to tackle all of this, as she is jewish and I am not. Granted she doesn’t practice but hey we still need to think about it.
Faith - interesting how some of our faith is built upon the very fabric and network of complex fib-telling and reason combined. Some have faith in a god they believe died for them on a cross, but if someone made up the whole thing and they are believing a story/falsehood, then one could say their faith is held up by a straw-pony.
Lies are the basis of many a tale. Many a story, embelishment.
[<------- Moby Dick was This Big ---------->]
Huert said:
If you told your kids santa existed would you not be lying directly to them? Enforcing and building the lie even further by putting cookies and milk out for the fat man to eat who is literally just a phantom, a contrived being? Are there deadly consequences to this?
It’s just friggin Santa right?. But it is still in essence, and by Huert’s definitions leading someone willingly astray for the purposes of deceit. Be it for good fun, or not it’s still a lie. Zev of course I would not want to be mislead or have my DVD player stolen out of my house. But those are not the lies I am speaking of. I am speaking of the basic garden variety lie.