This is one example, but I’ve been reading up on Islamic society and 30 years back this type of behaviour wasn’t the norm; women went around without headscarves, wore western style clothes, conservatism naturally wasn’t so widespread, so how has Islamic conservatism gotten so widespread and influencial? Is Islamic society going through a Victorian era my country experienced over 100 years ago? Is it a phase? How long will it endure, will it pass?
Source for quote?
I think that muslim society is becoming more radicalized in direct response to American policy playing into the hands of the radical fringes that are always present in any religion. People are being pushed away from liberal and moderate sections of society towards the radical fringes.
I suggest the OP amend his post to read, “Why are SOME Muslim societies becoming so radicalized?” otherwise be prepared to hear endlessly about women in Upper West Jerkistan (or “fill in the blank”) who are treated as total equals or maybe even superiors to their menfolk.
If you have some kind of cite that supports the notion that there has been a worldwide radicalization of Muslims esp. with regards to the general sexism of society, I would like to see it, because whenever I mention some of the shit that some Muslim societies get up to wrt to treatment of women, I constantly hear about “It’s not that way everywhere” and “some Muslims are different even in that country.”
I started a thread on how to discuss behaviors of groups reasonably, what I took away from it was the certainty that the Dopers at present have no interest in establishing a reasonable standard for such speech.
To respond directly, I have read in some sources that the Saudis, in return for being given power in Saudi Arabia, made a deal with the Wahabbist mullahs who were dominant there that they would fund Wahabbist schools throughout the country and also fund schools in other countries.
Wahabbi Islam is an extremist sect, they teach hatred of the Jews and their big friend the U.S. and teach that women should be treated like shit (OK, not in so many words, but still…). The wealthy Saudis have been funding Wahabbist schools all over the world. Surprise, surprise, they’ve radicalized a lot of people. Who’d a thunk it, from our good friends the Saudis?
I agree. Is anyone trying to prevent them from doing this?
Some, but there’s not a lot you can do. In most western countries, they are protected by free speech, free association and religious freedom concerns. In other countries, central authority is broken down in such a way that there’s nothing you can do. And in some countries, they welcome the Wahabbist schools.
The real problem is that in many countries, radical Islam is the only outlet for opposition against the ruling regime. It’s what happened in Iran, for instance. Legitimate, moderate, secular opposition groups were brutally oppressed by the Shah. The only groups left alone were radical Islamic groups, mainly because of Iranian tradition of mosques being relatively free zones. So, popular opposition was necessarily corralled unintentionally into fundamentalist sects.
Then wouldn’t democracy dilute this opposition being solely radical Islamist?
[QUOTE=NeurotikThe real problem is that in many countries, radical Islam is the only outlet for opposition against the ruling regime. It’s what happened in Iran, for instance. Legitimate, moderate, secular opposition groups were brutally oppressed by the Shah. The only groups left alone were radical Islamic groups, mainly because of Iranian tradition of mosques being relatively free zones. So, popular opposition was necessarily corralled unintentionally into fundamentalist sects.[/QUOTE]
ISTM that a lot of the crap we are going through right now WRT Islam is the result of the old-school realpolitik that led the U.S. to support various dictators against various species of in-house democratic movements, largely because they were Islamic fundamentalist movements that might well move in opposition to U.S. interests. This realpolitik was bipartisan in nature, with both Republican and Democratic administrations supporting it.
But it was also stupid and shortsighted, as recent events have proven. The notion that democratic movements eventually find expression and can’t be bottled up forever by dictators of various stripes, generally mouthed by liberals but ignored by policymakers of both parties and most ideologies, has proven to be a simple fact of life in the modern world, which our leaders are learning with all the speed and understanding that WWI generals showed in learning about mass charges against machine guns (i.e., very slowly and difficultly).
What we OUGHTTA be doing is getting our own propaganda machine going. It’s about our only option if we want to influence Muslim countries without using bullets exclusively. Sadly, I don’t think Bush has figured this out yet.
Whats the point when the Muslim world would immediately dismiss it as propaganda?
Absolutely.
I agree.
Sort of. The first thing we should do is stop the demonization of al-Jazeera. Do they do stuff we disagree with? Yes. Do they like us? Not particularly. But they are ultimately on our side in the fight for human rights and democracy in the region.
A Radio Free Arabia or something would help, but it has to be meticulous in its even handedness and openness. It can’t be seen as just a shill for the US.
Well, there’s overt propoganda and there’s covert propoganda. Both can succeed to some extent, but both have to be done intelligently, and have been done intelligently in the past. Look at the way the Russians gulled the American people into believing that things weren’t so bad in the Ukraine when Stalin was actually deliberatly starving Ukrainians by the millions, because he had a New York Times writer turned into a part of the Soviet disinformation machine. (In much the same way that disgraceful slutbag and Times writer Judith Miller was a Bush admin. tool in the dreambeat for war with Iraq.
It has been done. It can be done. We can do it.
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty broadcasts in a number of languages primarily spokem by Muslims, and in a number of places primarily inhabited by Muslims (as well as on the Internet).
Link: Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
Obviously, I can’t vouch for, say, the content or tone of the Pashto broadcasting.
Conservativism is all the rage now, it seems.