Why is Sauron evil?

Cafe Society
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Apologies for starting yet another Tolkein thread, but my wife and kids just came back from TTT, and my wife asked a question I thought some of you might be able to address.

Namely, why is Sauron evil?

My son responded that he came from the first evil, but what was the cause/source of TFE? Why does Sauron want to destroy/dominate all that is good?

My wife found this question vexing, because she did not understand Sauron’s motivation, or the reason for this history of Middlearth warfare.

Usually you can figure out a villian’s motivation. In Batman, Joker had reason for being evil - a lousy childhood IIRC. Most criminals, we can figure out some motivations. In fact, I think the crimes/criminals we find most disturbing are those which lack any apparent motive.

And tho we may not agree with the reasons for most wars, at least we can identify them.

But what is the motivation behing Sauron. Why does evil exist in Tolkein’s world?

(Tho I’ve read the H and TLotR several times, I’ve never made it through the Silmarillion. Is the answer in there?)

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Never underestimate the frustration caused by tight underwear.

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The resident Tolkien gurus will no doubt be in here momentarily, but my guess is “Bad Company”. Morgoth was a bad influence on him, after all. But once you taste power it’s hard to go back to being a servant – Sauron might actually have repented for a time at the end of the First Age, but old habits die hard.

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:smiley: Sauron.

Now, about the other guy…

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TFE was Melkor who became known as Morgath. He was one of the god-like (not god, Tolkien had a pyramid arrangement of power with the one that created the world on top. Morgath was from the second tier powers) Vala.

Morgath was evil…because he was (he kind of liked the job description and the hours I guess). Envy, greed, anger, all that stuff. Anyway, Sauron ( from the third tier of powers called Maiar) became his right hand guy. They shared many of the same personality traits, including wanting to dominate all of creation.

Eventually,after much trial and tribulation (read the Silmarillion), Morgath is finally defated and cast into the outer void…along with a lot of his allies and creations (amoung Morgath’s creations are dragons, orcs, trolls and fell beasts- the flying things the Nazgul’s ride). Those that are left either hide or pretend goodness. After a set of bad things happen, Sauron decides to take up where his boss left off and try to dominate middle-earth.

To aid in this he forges the rings of power and his master ring to control all. The rest…well, you can pick up on the story.

So Sauron’s motivation is a fairly honest want/craving to dominate middle-earth completely. Almost a Lucifer in wanting to rule where he has been exiled to, since the Vala have forbidden his return to the immortal realms. But don’t try to draw any allegories with Tolkien’s works, he disliked them and didn’t write any into his work.

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My question is what is Suaron? Is he human? Is he like gandalf, some sort of wizard gone bad?

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Sauron is evil because he was seduced and corrupted by Melkor, the first Dark Lord.

A better question would be: Why is Melkor evil? Was he a bad seed to begin with? Was it his upbringing? Nature? Nurture?

Tolkien makes it clear: Melkor was pure and good before Arda was created, he was not “born” evil. When Melkor entered Ea with the other Valar, he seems to have worked long to help them give shape and substance to the universe. There was no real strife until they were making that region which came to be known as Arda. And then he claimed it for his own, which he had no right to do. Greed, avarice, pride, the quest for power, and the desire to suppress the free wills of other beings, to order things as they saw fit led him down the road to the dark side. His original rebellious acts were not as sinful as his ultimate efforts to suppress free will of others and to maintain his power in the world.

Same things happens to the Numenorean Kings. Same thing happened to Saruman. Same thing happens in Shakepspeare. Etc. etc. Power, greed, pride, and the willingness to do anything to maintain said power, no matter how cruel and unjust; that my friend is the definition of evil.

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OK, the gerbils ate my first post.

Melkor/Morgoth was one of the Ainur, the first set/race of beings created by the Creator, Iluvatar. The Ainur were the servants of Iluvatar, and through them Arda (Earth) was created. Those Ainur who chose to descend to Arda and live there were called the Valar. They live at Valinor, in the so-called Undying Lands across the western sea from Middle-Earth, and this is where all of the elves will eventually go.

If we think of the Ainur as angels, then Melkor is like Lucifer: not content to be a servant of the Creator, an instrument of Creation or a team player: he wants to be a Creator himself, but he can’t. He is therefore jealous of the Creator, his power and his creation, and seeks to warp/mar/bend to his will what he cannot destroy. Like Lucifer, Melkor becomes known by his “bad” name, Morgoth. From the outset, Arda was tainted by the presense of Morgoth (think Satan in the Garden of Eden).

Sauron was one of a lesser “race” of beings who were servants to the Valar, called Maiar. Morgoth was his boss. After Morgoth was defeated, Sauron took up his former master’s cause toward destroying whatever parts of Arda could not be bent to his will.

This might seem to beg the question, “If Morgoth and Sauron are so evil, and seek to destroy Arda, why does Iluvatar allow them to exist at all?” But that’s like asking, in the religious terms of our modern world, “Why would God allow Satan to corrupt Adam and Eve; why would he allow someone like Hitler to exist?”

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From the pen of JRR Tolkien

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Huh?? In Ainulindalë, Melkor first sowed discord! Thus the 2nd them of Iluvatar was raised, with Manwë as its chief voice. And by the end of the 3rd theme, Iluvatar’s face was terrible to behold, and what he said made Melkor ashamed, and from this came Melkor’s secret anger.

And Arda was essentially what they made. It is the World. Oh, it had Ekkaia, the circling sea, but this was essentially part of it.

And from the early beginnings of the making of Arda, Melkor tried to hinder all that was done. Manwë had to call up to the timeless halls for more Ainur to get help to get the job done!

So Melkor, He Who Arises in Might, showed his seedy side before anything was even made.

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As the previous posters have shown, yes, it is. Bottom line - Sauron is a fallen angel.

You might find you fare better with The Silmarillion if you skip the first two parts (the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta) and go right to the section titled Quenta Silmarillion - go back and read those first two sections later, after you know the overall story. Once you reach the point where Feanor makes the Silmarils, the pace begins to pick up rapidly. And bookmark the Index and the Appendices, because you’ll need to refer to them occasionally to keep all the names straight; the Appendices contain several geneological tables showing who’s related to whom. The Silmarillion is like one of those Russian novels you read in college, or Shakespeare’s history plays, where everyone has similar-sounding names, and everyone is related to everyone else - the first time you read it, it’s easy to get the main players confused without looking at notes.

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I personally think there’s a potty-training/breastfeeding issue in there somwhere.

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Many others have touched on the nature of evil in ME, it comes down to possessiveness and the desire to dominate the will of others. The nature of evil and the reason for its existence I think can be traced to this, from the Ainulindalë:

(note: Melkor is Morgoth’s “true” name. He was renamed Morgoth, the dark enemy of the world, by Fëanor, when Fëanor learned of the theft of the silmarils and the murder of his father)

Melkor’s original sin was his desire to dominate the music of the Ainur, and possess it with his (as opposed to Illuvatar’s) will. From this he naturally progresses to attempt to dominate Arda, the world that is.

I think this passage also makes clear why evil is allowed to exist in ME - its existence is also part of Iluvatar’s will. One standard Judeo-Christian appraoch to the problem of evil is to posit that evil exists to allow good to be good. This generally also ties into an specific explanation of free will, in the sense that a choice of good over evil cannot truly mean anything unless it is free. While it is dangerous to read anything allegorical into Tolkien, I think in this case it is appropriate. Evil exists in ME so that the choice to do good can bring forth a greater wonder - the free choice to further the will of Iluvatar.

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Wow!

Thanks, all. And thanks artemis on the hints on how to attack the S. I had tried - and failed - to simply slog through it beginning to end. This from the guy who read Russian novels and Shakespeare as an escape from his law school reading assignments. Talk about stuff that all sounds alike …!

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Yes, but Melkor was around long before Arda was created. When Eru created Melkor, the greatest of the Ainur, he did not create him to be “evil”. When Melkor descended into Arda with the other Ainur his desire to shape the world to HIS liking was the beginning of his path to “evil”. The reason for this was because Melkor, and only Melkor, had a greater understanding of Eru’s “grand plan” so to speak. The Ainur were each given an understanding only of that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he or she came, with the exception of Melkor. Melkor had a part of the gifts of all the others. Melkor began to corrupt the Music of the Ainur in the creation of Arda because of his greater understanding of the themes, and his desire to alter it his liking.

Melkor didn’t have this grand understanding of Eru’s plan before he was called upon by Eru to create Arda. When he was a primordial spirit sitting who knows where, in the depths of time before the world was created, I seriously doubt he was “evil” or a “bad seed”.

Bah, what do I know. I’m sure I’m wrong. I’m confusing the hell out of myself just thinking about this stuff. :wink:

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Ah but Varda rejected Melkor even before the music! And before the music, Melkor wandered by himself into the void, seeking the flame imperishable, and began having thoughts different from those of his brethren.

So the seeds were sown before the music. And by the 2nd theme, certain dichotomies had set in. Suddenly Manwë had become Eru’s main agent. Irrevocable choices had been made. Now Melkor could have turned from evil then, but he did not.

Remember Eru speaking to Ulmo after the music but before the Ainur entered into Arda to achieve it: “see how Melkor has made war upon your domain…” (paraphrasing Ainulindalë). By the time the music was over, Eru knew there would be some serious s**t going down because of Melkor. And that was before the creation of anything, even time.

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Qadgop: Man, my head is seriously hurting from trying to digest all of this.

Your points are well taken. Just to clarify, are you implying that Eru (God) created Melkor as an evil Ainur? Are you saying that when Eru created Melkor he bestowed upon him the title of “First Dark Lord”? I seriously doubt this. The Eru in Tolkiens stories is basically the God of our Christian myths. We all know what Tolkiens religious beliefs were. The God of the Christian religions never willfully created anything “evil”, as far as I know. Everything that became evil was once “good”; Fallen Angels and what not. Isn’t that what Melkor really is: A Fallen Angel?

This is all I was saying in my original hypothesis: Melkor was not born evil. Melkor was once pure and good. His initial high ranking in the Ainur heiarchy and his greater understanding of Erus vision for Arda tempted him into desiring more control over it’s creation. This temptation and his lust for more power slowly corrupted him, which lead to selfish, greedy actions (in the extreme: breeding orcs, waging war, etc.) to achieve said goal. This is what evil is is it not?

But if you are saying that Eru (God) created Melkor (Satan) to be evil willfully, with his own hand, then I respectfully disagree.

Interestingly, I do happen to believe Eru meant for evil to occur in Arda, for without it “good” will not manifest itself. Did Eru plant the seeds for Melkor to become evil (because of his high ranking and unique understanding on his plan), eventually, from the beginning?

Food for thought.

I need some advil. :wink:

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It’s about being a part of each other’s being. Eru propounded a theme. A music, which had a single central purpose. All the Ainur had a part to sing, and among them the part of Melkor was the most intricate, and greatest, because Melkor was the most able. But Melkor was not satisfied with his place in the music.

Melkor could not cooperate. He had no sense of selflessness. He must be in control, not just of himself, but he must lead others. And more, he must lead all others. His “counter theme” was discordant, and vain. It was all “hook.” He got others to sing along, but his theme was not able to sustain the voices of all the ainur in a single music. After the first theme was led into discord, he knew that. But still, in the second theme, Melkor had to do the same thing, and this time it was revealed that his music was unlovely, and limited, only mocking the theme of Illuvatar.

So, when Arda was made, Melkor was the destroyer, who mars all things, and makes all the great works weaken, and fall. But the works of Illuvatar are greater than his knowlege, and become even more beautiful because of the strife of Melkor. Melkors intemperate fires bring forth the winds, and clouds which Manwe turns to great beauty. His frigid wastes in the north of Arda bring forth snow, and ice. So, the nature of the world of Arda is harmed but it is healed as well. And the children of Illuvatar know much suffering because of Melkor, and name him Morgoth, the great enemy of the world. From their suffering come courage, and steadfast love for Arda, as it should be. And again, the ill works of Morgoth are a part of the greater good of the theme of Illuvatar.

Sauron was a servant only. Sauron, as Morgoth before him had the chance to forswear his choices, and become a part of the world of the third theme of Illuvatar. But by then he was seduced by his own image of himself as great, and powerful. He would rule only, not serve another. In the end, he served himself, for a brief time, and came to the same end as his master, who wept no tears for the suffering of his erstwhile servant.

Tris

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No, I’m not saying that. Eru gave the Ainur great power, and the ability to make choices. But Melkor behaved badly very early on.

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Have I said lately that I love you guys?