Well you Canadian gals are hot, I really dig the furs you wear. JRRT knew this too.
JRRT, "The Silmarillion
Why does Mr Burns want to conquer the world with his flying gay monkeys?
because he’s evil
why does Sauron want to conquer the world with his inbread mindless orcs?
because he’s evil.
Does that answer your question? 
Fish got to swim,
bird got to fly,
man got to sit and wonder “Why, why, why?”
Fish got to rest,
Bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself he understand.
From “The book of Bokonon”
I love Qadgop most of all. [sub](Gratuitous boob flash)[/sub] I watch these threads, I just never respond because I’m just not s-m-r-t, Tolkein style.
Oh please, don’t asky why. No one quite knows the reason
It could be perhaps his shoes were too tight
It could be his head just wasn’t screwed on right
But the most likely reason of all,
is that his heart may have been two sizes too small
Ginger, Qadgop is a doctor, and a boob flash means nothing to him, being very clinical and locked behind prison walls all day and such. The rest of us appreciate the “gesture” more.
The question of what motivates Sauron and what is the nature of evil and why does God allow it to exist are themes throughout LOTR. They are not answered directly, as the work is a riff on these themes. But in the Silmarillion, we are given this as quoted above:
quote:
‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Illuvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’
That statement is not really given to more than one meaning: that Melkor cannot do anything that isn’t from Illuvatar, even evil. He simply is not capable of it. Therefore, Illuvatar created the being that brought evil into being, and intended that it be so, in order to enhance the other creations.
We are told a couple of times that one of the chief themes of evil is the domination of others, so I think that this is important in considering the nature of evil in JRRT’s Arda.
Spartacus, Speak not of which you know not! Light years separate the clinical breast exam of a patient from a gratuitous boob flash of a fellow doper and lusty northern wenchette! Think you I am made of stone? If you prick me, do I not bleed? If a doper lusts at me, is it not my free choice to lust back or no?
Anyway, did Eru then create evil, or just free will? Can one create free will without creating evil? For free will gives us both the desire to dominate others, and the boob flash. Yet the boob flash is not necessarily evil. Nor is domination, if done by mutual consent, even if bought at the price of great pain! (Just make sure to use some bactine, and be certain the cuffs don’t chafe).
ginger, gratuitous boob flashes warmly welcomed at my e-mail address!
He could easily have created both without giving full free will to Melkor. The Valar, being the powers, do not necessarily need it in the grander scheme. In fact, given the text surrounding the music of the ainur, I don’t think they actually have it in the moral sense. They have the power to interperate their portion of the theme, but that still sources to Eru. For Elves & Men, the children of Iluvatar, having free will makes sense, as they must live in the world created by the powers (& Ultimately Eru).
No, no, Dr. Qadgop. It wouldn’t be fitting to subject you to yet another boob flash when I know all you see all day, one after another, is con-boobs. It wouldn’t be fittin’. 
Please, continue the discourse. I am not confident enough in the subject matter to join in, but I’m enjoying it thus far.
Not sure I buy this completely. Did not Ossë repent of his actions, and disavow Morgoth? Perhaps the Ainur cannot act outside of their “nature” but I think their inherent nature allows both good and evil actions. I don’t think Eru is into predestination so much as his scope is so vast that all possible outcomes eventually serve his purpose. IMHO.
Of course, I’m also influenced in part at least by his earlier versions of his Mythos, as noted in HOMES, where the Valar are a bunch of petty godlings getting into squabbles with each other, snubbing the elves over perceived slights, and not fully cooperating with each other until their feet are held to the fire by Melko. Watching Meassë and Makar waver back and forth between sympathy for Melko and distaste for him, as these sibling Vala bathe in blood, gives a different feel to the roots of The Silmarillion.
I think you are noticing the transition in style in the mythos as it grows. The original depiction of the Valar has similarities to Olympus, where the gods are no better then men. In that tradition, it would make sense for the Valar to have free will. However, the late “published” version of the Silmarillion, he has transistioned to a more Judeo-Christian mythic style with an overarching creator. I understand that he was planning further revisions to it, but I don’t think they would change the tone of the Ainulindalë.
In fact, having re-read the Beginning of Days chapter, I would at this point say that only men, among the creations of Iluvatar have free will. Two cites:
and
I think these passages can only be read one way: Men have free will. All others, be they Elf, Maia, Vala or Enemy, do not. This is not to say that they may not have some limited choice to operate under, but they are ultimately bound to the nature given them by Eru.
deathawk, I always took the comments about Men and the gift of Iluvatar to mean that while everyone else’s actions (Ainur, elves) always resulted in something in accordance to the Music, what Men did could actually run contrary to Eru’s themes. To me it leaves all agents in Arda with free will, but the consequences of said free will can be very different.
As an interesting side point to this discussion, it is mentioned in the Silmarillion that Sauron had the opportunity to repent after the defeat of Morgoth. The text doesn’t state definitively whether or not he would have been capable of it, quite the contrary in fact since it presents both options of Sauron faking his apology to the agent of the Valar and Sauron too ashamed of his actions to return and face everyone he left and eventually falling back into his old habits.
Qagdop The passage identifies the music with fate. If your choice is actually free, it cannot be bound by a predetermined fate, which is the case with the music, as it was sung before time began. Men are therefore the only true free agents. All others must act in accordance with their nature, which takes its source in the music. I would say the other agents may have some limited volition in terms of how their part in the music is actualized, but this is not the same as a free choice. Just because they may not know that their choice is predetermined by the music does not make it free - their choice must ultimately accord with a predetermined fate.
Frankly this discussion goes too far afield into topics of free will vs. fate, etc. to ever really resolve, at least IMHO. I see Ainur and elves as creations of Eru with free will, but contained within Ea and thereby constrained by it. I see Man as being able to slip the bonds of creation, by Eru’s design, but out of Eru’s control. Lest I wander further into sophistic solopsism, I’ll bow out of the discussion on the ultimate nature of JRRT’s created multiverse.
Qagdop
I certainly understand your point of view. Apologies if it seems I was ramming this down the path of obscure ethical discussions. I agree that to take this further would require a dive into that minefield, though IMHO it is resolvable. If nothing else, I do think this shows the depth of Tolkien’s writing that discussions about the nature of evil & free will in middle earth are reasonable.
Also - my apologies for the dyslexic mispelling of your name in the previous posts.
*Jeu_D’esprit *
- … Sauron’s motivation … Almost a Lucifer … But don’t try to draw any allegories with Tolkien’s works, he disliked them and didn’t write any into his work. *
You’re right, in that “allegory” = intentional meaning. However, given the way the creative subconscious works, this is not to say that a real but unintended relationship might exist. It’s hard, for instance, to disconnect Tolkien’s Catholicism from this theme of an evil entity that had been thrown out from the gods and wants back in. Tolkien’s idea of evil as ‘industrial’ (the fires and engines of Mordor, the Scouring of the Shire) fits in very well with his documented dislike of the growing city of Birmingham encroaching on the rural Sarehole of his childhood.
Whats always intrigued me about Tolkiens writing is how he treats the creative/creation proccess. I’m sorry it’s been years since I read the Simirilion but I’ll try my best to explain myself. The being that created the two trees of light used up a large portion of his creative power, so that he could never again create something as great as that. The being that created the Simirils did as well. Finally, Sauron created the Ring and once again, same as before. IMHO Tolkien was sub-consciously speaking of his own creative power and LOTR.
Heres a question, are the simirils on the three elven rings of power or am I remembering incorrectly?
biohazard, I’m afraid you confused things. Yavanna, having made the Two Trees once, could not remake them again. But there was no mention of it diminishing her creative powers otherwise. Feanor likewise said that he could not make the silmarils a second time, but there was no mention of his being diminished by the task. And one silmaril ended up in the earth, one in the sea, and the other in the sky (Bound to Earendil’s brow) as a bright star.
Sauron was diminished by putting his power in the ring, however. This was only a problem if the ring was destroyed.
Morgoth was said to have been diminished by spending so much of his power in domination and hate.