I am currently rereading the lord of the rings, and have started to rethink the book … kinda seeing it in a different light.
And i got to comparing Sauron to real life bad guys, and started thinking if he condsidered himself evil. Sure Gandalf and Elrond and the rest tell of how evil he is, and what he did wrong, but they would, scene as they are opposing sides at war. Disreagarding who started the war (and remaining within the book)…
-Sauron was assailed by a legion of elves and men who invaded his country
-Outside Baradur Isildur cuts a ring from his hand and then takes it as his own (theft basically)
-Much later Sauron then discovers where his ring is being kept and sends his 9 wraiths to get it (hey it is HIS, he made it and has every right to own it)
-The 9 wraiths despite their appearance dont kill or slaughter anyone, they dont even hurt the old gaffer, but offer him gold if he helps them find baggins
-Later when they finally catch up with the halfling thief, their leader doesnt behead him with his longsword, but jabs him in the shoulder with a knife (subdueing him? strider says the ring wraith was goin for the heart, but he wasnt exactly there)
and if i remember right, sauron is the only one in the book that makes a peace offer when all the captains of the west are at his door… the “good guys” never once made a peace offering to him
soo, at what part of the book could u convince me (a neurtal observer) that sauron is indeed the bad guy? and dont say assaulting minas tirith, its war … isenguard was assulted too
And the orcs were just misunderstood, and just had low self esteem…
Interesting notions. Although on the historical bit with Gil-Galad and Elendil’s armies attacking Mordor – I think the whole point was that this fight was happening because Sauron was trying to take over Middle Earth. Although you probably have to go to the Silmarillion (which I haven’t read yet) to get all the back story.
Interesting observations on the ringwraiths, though – the movie has one of them cutting down a hobbit who is just in his path, but that doesn’t happen in the book, I don’t think.
I’ve just started re-reading LOTR, so I’ll be keeping a more careful eye out, now!
is it ever said that he tortured golllum in the book? if i remember right gandalf assumed he was tortured, cause he (gollum) wouldnt say a word when he tried to question him on mordor
i’m sure the ring wraith only had to look at gollum to get him to say “baggins” and “shire”
hey, even sam could make gollum cry
Sauron had corrupted the hearts of most of the people of Numenor, in part using the power of the ring, leading directly to its destruction. So I guess that Elendil and sons had pretty good reason to go after Sauron at that point. And the Elves had withstood numerous attacks and betrayals over the second age, and Sauron was second-in-command to Morgoth during that little spat over some jewellery back in the First Age, giving them plenty incentive to attack.
Think of that more like, say, depriving Saddam of weapons of mass destruction. Of course, Isildur should have destroyed it at that point.
Again, think WMD.
I think the gate-keeper at Bree was killed?
They probably weren’t trying to kill Frodo. They were likely trying to turn in him to a wraith much like themselves, so that he would be subject to eternal torment by the Lidless Eye for having carried the Ring. Personally, I’d rather be dead.
I’ll give you this one
I’d check out the appendices (if you haven’t already), and especially the Silmarillion for tons more about the nature of Sauron and his dealings with Middle-Earth.
You’re right, at least in terms of Gandalf’s account in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”. It sounded like Gandalf had guessed this, but I don’t think Gollum actually told him that, when Gandalf and Aragorn found him.
Okay, for the Nazgul, does Breaking and Entering count? Because there’s definitely some of this going on. Like at the start of the chapter “A Knife in the Dark”, where they break in at the house at Crickhollow (in Buckland, in the Shire), where Frodo supposedly moved to.
Well, in the movie, yes – he was squashed like a bug. But I don’t think this is in the book. However, there is a description of the slash and smash job on the room that the hobbits had rented in Bree, with windows forced open and such. (Also in “A Knife in the Dark”). So, more Breaking and Entering, as well as Vandalism and Wanton Destruction of Property.
So, there are a few crimes that the Nazgul would have to be charged with at this point, even if we haven’t got them on Murder One yet.
<quote>Think of that more like, say, depriving Saddam of weapons of mass destruction. Of course, Isildur should have destroyed it at that point. </quote>
hardly very fair… hows about spies from switzerland (hey its neutral) snuck into america and stole all their nukes over night… would america want em back?
Or how would Aragorn react to Snarf (Orc chieftain of the snotnose clan) and Snargle (Medicine man of the smelly armor clan) demanded anduril be handed over as its a weapon of mass destruction of orcs:p
Given that the Nazgul believed that the Hobbits were in those beds couldn’t we file a charge of conspiracy to commit murder? Or attempted murder? Is there a lawyer in the thread?
I think C. S. Lewis said something about evil people never pursuing “evil” as such, or even thinking of themselves as evil.
I think a more interesting debate would be whether the Numenoreans were justified in trying to steal immortality from the gods by breaking the ban to sail West. Why couldn’t they be immortal like the Elves? Why did they have to abide by Illuvitar’s so-called “gift”? Remember that Sauron was heavily invoved in that debacle as well.
I think they were misguided in their belief that they could achieve immortality by simply sailing West. The Undying Lands do not in themselves confer immortality, being simply the place where most of the immortal live. The immortality is inherent in the nature of the being, and is not in the gift of the Valar. (I’m pretty sure that no-one made the mortal to immortal jump). I’ve always got the impression that to the Elves the long passage of time and the decay of the world, bound to Arda until the end, made Illuvatars gift a rather bitter-sweet one.
Earandil, the Mariner, alone among men did not die. Beren lived again, for a time, after he died, the first time, but he was mortal in the end, and Luthien joined him in death, alone among elves to recieve the gift of Iluvatar to men, until Arwen Evenstar, in the forth age was likewise granted it by the choice of Elros, her kinsman.
Remember also that the family of Elendil, and of Gil Galad remembered the perfidity of Sauron in the first and second ages, from the time when he was Morgoth’s servant, and his dealings with the smiths of Eregion, when the rings of power were first made. Sauron’s duplicity in Numenor, and his enslavement of the Nazgul, who were also men of Numenor count as well in the tale of his past misdeeds.
Whatever Sauron considers himself to be, the Elves want no part of his fair seeming postures. They have tasted the bitterness of his sweet words already, and will have no more.
Nitpick, Tris: Tuor, Earendil’s father, did not die, but was assumed into elvenkind and went Oversea with Idril. Earendil himself was halfelven (as was Elwing), and had the same choice as his sons as to which kindred he would belong to.
Other than that detail, though, a marvelous and insightful post!
Nitpicker’s nitpick: The above was believed to be the case by Tuor and Idril’s family. No definitive statement ever came out of Valinor about this, unlike the case of Earendil.
First, one starts believing everything they hear in an elf ballad, then one starts buying real estate in the midgewater marshes. Have I got a great deal for you on a slightly used dark tower!
“An elven maid there was of old,
a data-entry worker by day”
