It’s funny. With all the contempt people heap on suicides, it makes me wonder why society would want such losers around anyway. If people think a suicide is selfish and immature and stupid and crazy and whiny and so on and so on, why do they want that selfish and immature and stupid and crazy and whiny and so on and so on person hanging around?
I just can’t grasp it. “You’re not in pain, you’re just stupid and selfish and horrible. Oh, and I need you around 'cause I looove you.” With friends like these…
It’s like homophobia. The people who hate homosexuals the most are the ones who the least secure in their own sexuality. Scratch a suicide denier and you will find someone who is terrified of the same potential in themselves.
No one said it is automatically a “good thing”. It just is. You have been given the gift (or curse…mixed blessing is probably the best term) of life and it’s up to you to make the most of it.
I guess what I don’t like about the idea of “suicide” is that it is a permenant choice and by nature I don’t like to get locked into anything.
Anyhow, I didn’t mean to imply that you should just sit there and wallow in your depression. I mean get off of your ass and get some help. Professional if need be.
I guess this is what I don’t understand. I have experienced all of these things - job loss (more often then I probably should), breakups, friends moving away. Yeah, it sucks. I was miserable when I lost my job a few years ago. The economy sucked. I was in a highly competitive field and for the most part I liked the company and the work and now it seemed like there wasn’t much hope in getting a similar type of job. Not to mention I had $1800 in rent due each month. The prospect of moving out of my East Village appartment and living with my parents as a 30 year old was probably the most depressing of all. But after a few weeks I got over being miserable and even managed to enjoy my time off.
Eventually you realize that you will find another job or make new friends or find a new SO. Or you find enjoyment in your situation - I can hang out in the park all day while everyone is slaving at work or I don’t have someone telling me what to do. So what makes some people unable to see past their own problems or envision the possibility of a better situation?
I get what it feels like to be depressed or to lack purpose. I don’t get how you can so not find any enjoyment in any aspect of life that you want to end it. I feel compassion for people who suffer from depression, however I don’t think they should be coddled as they wear their affliction like a badge of honor.
For now, I’ll leave you with this quote:
“You know, once I was thinking of quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and won the Tour de France 6 times in a row. …So what are you dying of…?”
And this is exactly why you will never understand, because your concept of depression is always linked to life events, cause and effect. Can you comprehend someone with a great job, a wonderful marriage, loving family, fulfilling in every way, yet they are miserably depressed and cannot bear to face another day?
If not, then yes, you do not not understand what clinical depression is. Feeling bad because of life’s travails *is not * depression. Feeling bad *in spite of * life’s joys is depression.
I would say suicide is bad when it done for something that is temporary in nature. Like if someone breaks up with their partner, or they lose their job, or they don’t like their parents, etc. It’s tragic when someone kills themselves over something which can be fixed with a bit of time or distance between them and the problem.
But I think suicide is understandable when it is done to end some sort of chroic condition that severely degrades a person’s enjoyment of life. If they’ve spent a reasonable amount of time with the condition and made reasonable attempts to overcome it, I think it is reasonable for them to made a rational decision about whether or not it is worth it to carry on.
Of course I would feel bad if my friend with terminal cancer killed herself, but I would not want her to suffer through her illness just so that I wouldn’t feel bad.
I think that’s the krux of the matter. Suicide was considered a sin in Biblical times because killing yourself in that environment could literally destroy your community when everyone relied on each other so much. There is also the psychological factors - Christianity set itself up as the religion that offered a really bitchin’ afterlife so they had todisuade people from wanting to get there too soon - so make suicide the mother of all sins.
But I do think a lot of our concerns about suicide comes from our fear and lack of acceptance of death as a culture in general.
I’ve decided to take my hijack over here and stop cluttering up this thread. Sorry Mr. Stamos’_Ear. I promise to confine myself there so y’all can continue on in the vein you intended.
I think this is an excellent way of distinguishing between the various reasons for suicide. It’s tragic when it’s a permanent solution to a temporary problem. But as a permanent solution to a permanent problem? It’s reasonable and rational. Sad, yes, so damned sad, but not selfish or childish or deserving of vitriol.
Easy there, SM, I’m on your side. I was expressing the frustrating view of those who cannot accept suicide at any time for any reason. Read the rest of my posts.
Today’s award for the fastest self-contradiction goes to…
Why is it a good thing? “It just is”? Can I make the same argument for death being a good thing?
Apart from it being obvious that you don’t know what it is to be depressed, this still isn’t an argument against suicide. I find it very difficult to be sympathetic to people who get into debt through gambling, but that’s not an argument against allowing gambling.
What reasons do you have for being opposed to suicide other than the fact it’s not something you approve of personally?
This is probably going beyond the scope of the thread, but I think that part of the problem that the two sides have in understanding each other is the word “depression” itself. Because a term with a common meaning is also used to describe a medical condition, it leads to unnecessary confusion; imagine if, instead of “feverish”, we just said “hot” - I’m sure some would think “Well, I was hot last August, I don’t see why there’s such a fuss about these people who are ‘clinically’ hot. Can’t they just turn up the air conditioning?”
It’s a pity the medical profession didn’t stick with the old term, “melancholia”.
This is where I run into a disconnect as basic as the one I run into when trying to explain to Atheists why my faith matters so much to me or, I suspect, they run into when trying to explain why I should set aside my faith. I’m concerned it may be a bit of a copout to say, “If you haven’t experienced it, you can’t understand it.” My understanding of things is what I have is in some ways the equivalent of a defective circuit breaker. Where you get to a certain point and then stop, I keep going. I seem to lack the mental switch which stops me from catastrophizing and only seeing the worst of everything. It also keeps me from allowing myself to derive pleasure from simple, basic things because I think I don’t deserve them. You mentioned going to the park while other people are at work. There’s a wonderful park a couple of miles from where I live. It incorporates a deep ravine so there’s not a trace of the surrounding city, and it’s even popular with dog walkers so I can get my doggy fix. I didn’t go there until my therapist basically prescribed a walk in the park for me. I can’t adequately explain why.
Can you imagine what it’s like to be sinking in pain and agony, a phone quite literally six inches from your hand, an old and trusted friend’s phone number running through your head and being unable to will yourself to move your hand that six inches and dial that number? That’s what depression does to me when it’s at its worst. It hasn’t been that bad in over a year and a half, and the last time it was that bad was when my apartment was being sold (ultimately to me). I hope it never gets that bad again, and I do what I can to prevent it. Just as my friend’s husband has to be aware of his blood sugar and what certain things can do to him, so I have to be aware of this possibility and what my mind can do to me.
I’ve been thinking about this thread quite a bit over the past couple of days. I admit there are times when suicide can be a mercy. I’ll even go so far as to say there have been times in my life when if I’d successfully committed suicide it would have been a mercy. That doesn’t mean it can’t still be a tragedy at the same time. If someone dies after a long, painful illness, death could easily be seen as being a good thing and a mercy to them, but it remains a bad thing for those who’ve been left behind and, I’d argue, it’s tragic that we live in a world where such things happen. If I’d died 15 or 20 years ago, or even three years ago, I would have been spared a lot of pain. I also would have been spared a lot of joy. There’s a line from a song by Pink Floyd, “Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way.” That’s the way I was brought up. My father quoted to me more than once, “Most men lead lives of quiet despair.” If all one’s life and all one’s world is uninterupted despair, I can certainly understand why one would commit suicide. To coin a phrase, “Been there; done that; and the t-shirt wasn’t worth it!” A friend of mine has multiple sclerosis and, up until the past few years, has led a very rough life. She still managed to surprise us a year ago by getting married to a terrific guy and she intends, I gather, to live life to its fullest until the end, just as a friend of my mothers who had multiple sclerosis did. I’ll probably have to fight clinical depression for the rest of my life. I still intend to enjoy life, though, regardless of the pain ahead.
Oh, a quick note on Christianity and suicide. As I understand it, suicides were traditionally assumed to be condemned because they wouldn’t have time to repent of their sins before they died, therefore they would die unconfessed and unforgiven for any sins they had committed. As a devout, if unconventional Christian, I’d say that God is no more likely to condemn a person for committing suicide than He is for dropping dead of a heart attack or dying while in a diabetic coma. This is, in my opinion, a medical condition, not a moral condition. I’d also argue, based on my own experiences, that the traditional view has it backwards. Suicides go through hell *before * they die. (Please picture that with being said with a sadly ironic twist of the lip.) Once I mentioned my faith had wavered when I was suicidal during a church Bible study group. On my way to the car that evening, a fellow parishioner told me, “You realize, of course, all suicided go to hell.” At the time I was stunned by his tactlessness. A few months later, I wrote an essay for my church’s newsletter explaining what clinical depression is like and, in part, why I felt he was wrong.
I know I asked this earlier elsewhere, but does this make sense?
CJ
Exactly. Life is not necessarily a good or bad thing. It’s just that the alternative is nothing.
I guess the way I understand it is feeling how I feel at my crappiest, all the time, for no apparent reason. That sounds like a horrible way to live but it seems to me that some help is available. I also think that I would want to exhaust all my options and then some before trying something so final as suicide.
And not to sound insensitive, but I stand by my original statement. Plenty of people do in fact choose to deal with their depression. They seek help or exercise or whatever it takes. I did not mean you should sit there and suffer silently alone.
