Dang it. That keeps happening to my links. I’m not doing the cut & paste right.
Thanks.
Well the reason I mentioned the government was that Sqweels appeared under the impression that Weimar was an Allied imposed government.
Germany wasn’t. Parts were, but Germany itself wasn’t. This differs from Iraq in that the country was occupied, and, after withdrawals, the troops are now based in Baghdad. Germany specifically was not an occupied nation, just a nation that had occupied parts. After the Second World War, there weren’t Allied troops on every square inch of territory, but the country as a whole was subject to occupation. The situation in 1919 was very different.
Yes, I agree that the occupation of limited areas did arouse nationalistic passions, but I will stick with the idea that it was very different to a fulls cale occupation, both in practical terms and in terms of the effect on the public psyche. I think a full scale defeat of Germany, followed up by dismemberment of the German state and occupation of certain parts (Prussia) might have been a good thing, but it wasn’t practical in 1919.
A further difference is that in Germany in 1919, there wasn’t significant percentages of the population who were mighty glad that the governemtn of the land in which they lived had lost the war.
I am almost willing to bet that you and your fathers have reconstruction to blame more than slavery. That and the injustice of the Jim Crow laws that followed. I can’t and won’t attempt to defend the contemptible practice of Jim Crow but you might do well to consider how much recently freed, almost completely uneducated blacks suffered as a direct result of reconstruction and how often the little property they had was usurped by carpet baggers who exploited reconstructionism. Slavery was wrong—you’ll get no argument from me on that point. But you might take a look at reconstructionism.
Can you explain what bearing this has to the OP’s question? Having reminders of slavery through balconies and the last name’s of black folk doesn’t really explain why the Confederacy is not as reviled as one would think it would be.
Take slavery out of the picture and reconstruction wouldn’t have happened (because there would have been no Civil War) and in all likelihood neither would Jim Crow.
Sorry. I should say “Southerners” instead. The people living away from the deep south seem pretty well adjusted to realize that the Confederacy was nothing to be proud of. Americans of all stripes should feel about the Confederates as the Germans feel about Nazis
Never mind. Just saw what came after that excerpt. Disregard question.
If you look at Reconstruction, though, look at the real history of it, not the commonly taught view that Reconstruction governments were irredeemably corrupt and did not benefit the populations of the South at all. Eric Foner’s book, “Reconstruction: America’s Unfinished Revolution,” is a great starting point. Look at how Reconstruction efforts in education, for example, were of great benefit to poor whites as well as blacks.
To place the blame for Jim Crow on Reconstruction, rather than the opposition to Reconstruction is somewhat ridiculous. As is to discuss the plight of “almost completely uneducated blacks” without discussing why blacks were almost completely uneducated. And to point to “carpet baggers” usurping black property (which happened in some cases) yet ignore the Southern labor codes, which were slavery in all but name, strikes me as attempting to whitewash history a little.
“Regime” in a broader sense could include the provisions of the Versallies treaty. And the Weimar republic was weak and associated with the defeat and the loss of national pride.
So if it had been, the Nazis would have wound up being no more evil than the Ku Klux Klan?
I think this is the main reason (at least, for people who otherwise would be extremely anti-slavery and thus anti-Confederate). Lee lends nobility and an underdog nature to the South that wouldn’t’ve existed if Lee somehow not ended up in control of the Southern forces (if he had taken Lincoln’s offer, if Johnston was never wounded, etc)
Where on earth do you get such foolishness from? I was saying that there is not a strong comparison to be made between Germany in, lets say, 1919-1923, and the Reconstruction South.
Now, if you want me to play what ifs, I think had Germany been occupied in 1919, as a result of the war continuing until the German army was visibly broken, with Allied infantry and cavalry rolling over German rather than French and Belgian fields and towns, the political future of Germany would have been rather different and would be far less likely to have included the Nazis in any significant way. Such an outcome, however, wasn’t practically possible. France was bled dry. Britain had no real stomach for further warfare. And understandably so.
In the first place half of the posts in this (or any other SDMB thread) have nothing to do with the OP.
This however does. It shows why the Civil War is so much a part of the culture down here- it surrounds us. It’s human nature not to think of your own people as the villain, or
The OP- the title for that matter- asks “why is the Confederacy not worthy of contempt?” For the benefit of those who are used to having felt boards and hand puppets in their explication I’ll explain slowly the relevance of that posts:
-Most people do not feel the desire or the need to hold their own culture or their own ancestors in contempt
-Things like slave balconies/common-surnames-with-black-people/the de rigeur Confederate veteran statues/threads like this/names of high schools (in Montgomery two of the biggest public schools are Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis) are daily reminders “this is our culture and our heritage”
Heritage incidentally is a rather neutral word:
To southerners the Civil War is a major part of our heritage. To the Germans World War II is a major part of our heritage. To Irish Americans the potato famine is a major part of their heritage.
I neither honor nor romanticize my heritage. I acknowledge it. I have studied it. I find it fascinating. I find the Third Reich fascinating. I do not equate the Confederacy with the Third Reich or vice versa, but a study of either will explain the times a lot more than “a bunch of evil people started a war because they were all evil and stuff” simplicity.
If you’ll read Liberal’s posts in other threads you’ll know a major part of his heritage is Native American. He does not have blinders on about the way men like Andrew Jackson- also a part of our heritage- viewed non-whites. I’ve never met him or been to his house but I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t come to the door in a butternut uniform and I don’t routinely offer my guests a mint julep and a chance to sing sad Civil War songs (though I certainly knowthe lyrics). Me, Liberal, LouisB, Zoe, Ogre- et al- are proud Americans who acknowledge the evils of our heritage, and the good things as well. For black southerners their heritage is Venn Diagrammed with ours- some is the same, some is different. (Actually I have black ancestors but that’s another story- for purposes of this I’m a snow white Southerner, but I mention because it shows the complexity and interlapping of that heritage.)
When these threads come up two things are invariable:
1- They’re all started by non and usually anti-southerners (I’ve yet to see one “Confederate States of America!.. Fuck Yeah!” thread started by a regular Doper)
2- They invariably descend into into “Why sure I’m an Abolitionist, certainly, I’m mighty proud to say it, always mighty proud to say it!” crowing by people who seem to think that being anti-slavery would either offend modern Southerners (neither I nor anybody in my family has owned a slave in more than 9 years) and hypocritical or ignorant “anybody who benefits from underpaid underfed abused workers is wrong- now pardon me I’ve gotta to to the clearance sale at GAP!” non-sequiturs
3- Attempts to show that the 19th century South was an incredibly complex society (as was the 19th century North as was the 19th century USA as was the 19th century World) where there was a lot more gray than on the uniforms and there were no easy answers for how to end slavery or how to deal with a nation where economics that benefitted the North hurt the South or that the notion that states which came into a union voluntarily should have the rights to exit them voluntarily (a notion not just held by southern states- several northern states considered secession over the years; New York City’s own mayor advocated the secession of NYC as an autonomous city state during the Civil War) was not as unthinkable to people whose fathers fought for America’s right to do exactly that as it is to us and that there was never a magic line where racial views went instantly from “Black people are inferior and must be chained” to “Welcome my African brothers and sisters come let’s all be equal” as if walking from Glastonbury Tor into Avalon invariably are interpreted as “Confederate States of America… FUCK YEAH!!!”
The answer lies as most answers do within a showtune:
Well, I don’t act as if they don’t exist. Thomas Jefferson was a brilliant intellectual and a great visionary- and a slaveowner who had children with his slaves and knowingly let an overseer whip them, and a man of the people who spent more money on his wine for a month than most people earned in a year- I see both. Martin Luther King was a champion of freedom who risked and ultimately gave his life for the cause of civil rights- and he was a chronic adulterer who plagiarized his doctoral thesis. The Pilgrims were intolerant religious fanatics who killed Indians- and also risked their lives to leave everything they knew behind and endure a terrifying voyage across a sea into a completely unknown land where they knew there was an excellent chance they would all die and most did. The Indians themself were a wildly mixed bag- sinned against and sinning. Jefferson Davis, Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant, Robert E. Lee, Private Albert Woolson of the 31st Minnesota/Private Marion B. Cotton of the 51st Alabama- sinned against and sinning. Nat Turner/John Brown- evil and good and in between all swirled with the swizzlestick of experience and zeitgeist. I won’t read more than one book by an author who has cardboard characters and I won’t even complete one book by a historian who has them.
While defending others (such as the laughable Northern Aggression myth). True, I haven’t seen anything from him quite as bad as this crock of hog drippings.
Yeah, Reconstruction was horrible, what with blacks getting to vote and electing black Congressmen and Senators, until Southern whites got things back to a sane footing. :dubious:
*Poll tax, how I love ya, how I love ya,
My dear old poll tax…
The land of the boll weevil,
Where the laws are medieval,
Is callin’ me to come and nevermore roam.
I wanna go back to the Southland,
That “y’all” and “shet-ma-mouth” land,
Be it ever so decadent,
There’s no place like home. *
- Tom Lehrer
“Those people just can’t understand our unique ethos!”
Heartbreaking, it is.
I have no problem with Southerners (why, boy, I lived in the old Confederacy). Professional Southerners, on the other hand, I can do without.
The reason Lee has a memorial at Arlington might be that the cemetery was built in his yard. The first graves were planted closest to the house, in an attempt to surround it. In fact it was years later that Lee’s son finally got compensated for the property, in a Supreme Court case ironically handled by Abraham Lincoln’s son, IIRC.
This is a bit of a distortion–Lincoln was willing to put off dealing with slavery if it preserved the union. In his opinion the continuance of democracy was more important than freeing the slaves. That doesn’t mean that slavery wasn’t important to him.
An interesting aspect of Southern culture is the view of the Civil Rights era- a century after the Civil War and in which many of the key players are still alive*. They’re not romanticized but reviled; the southern states themselves continue to bring them to justice to atone for the injustice of 40 years ago. One of those convicted of the 16th Street Church Bombing (which killed friends/classmates of Condoleezza Rice incidentally) was convicted in part by the testimony of his own granddaughter. Far from glossing over or shying away from these incidents there are huge museums to them. Just in my city alone: the Maya Lin [Civil Rights Memorial](http://kwc.org/blog/archives/maya%2 0line.civil%20rights.jpg) outside of the Southern Poverty Law Center (most famous for bankrupting the KKK in civil suits- founded by Morris Dees, self described redneck son of a cotton farmer and descendant of Confederates, or as he’d be better known to many of these threads a slavery apologist), the Rosa Parks Museum, the King Parsonage, an entire floor of the Archives Building (more than is donated to the Civil War exhibits), and countless historical placards and signs exist all through the area. We (speaking collectively as much as you can of any place) take full ownership of the horrors of that era and our involvement in them.
All of these things are a short walk from the capitol where Jefferson Davis was inaugurated. The State Archives is next to and the King parsonage are less than a block from the White House of the Confederacy. That’s the South- both heritages are, like the gates to heaven and hell, juxtaposed and easily accessible.
I wonder- do other regions of the country address the more negative parts of their heritage in such a way?
*My brother’s next door neighbor is this man is a highly decorated Korea veteran and liberal retired attorney whose firm used to take death row cases pro bono. He’s more famous for his picture having been in newspapers.
The Attorney General of Alabama when Rosa Parks was arrested, one of the most racist men who ever governed here when became the governor during the final days of MLK’s tenure at Dexter Ave. Baptist Church, is not only still alive but he still works as an attorney and free-lance judge; he actually was the judge who removed Roy “10 Commandments” Moore. He has never apologized to my knowledge for his involvement, but then he’s richer than most gods. (I know many people who heard his opponent Wallace apologize- not one has expressed any doubts as to his sincerity.)
Well then, why the difference in Southern attitudes towards these two episodes in Southern history? Why are the bigotry and oppression of the pro-slavery Confederacy romanticized or glossed over, while the bigotry and oppression of 20th-century civil rights opponents are reviled and repudiated?
Because one involves relatives who have been dead for a century and are rarely given much thought outside of historians, genealogists, and message board threads while the other involves living people whose filmed images and testimony is all around us and lived in a time much more similar to our own and that everyone we know who is over 40 has first hand accounts of perhaps? And in speaking of my own heritage- are you aware that there were quite a few white southerners involved in the Civil Rights movement on the right side?
Out of curiosity-for English Dopers, are Queen Victoria and the powerful of her era as condemned for their actions in India, Africa, China, etc., as the American South is for something that happened 140 years ago?
And why the moral outrage for the actions of our great-great-grandparents? Is there nothing around you today that you can devote your abolitionist fervor towards? As Christ said to Judas “Chill dude, there’ll still be poor people to help tomorrow” and as George Bush demonstrated, I say unto you “Chill, you don’t need dead people from another place and time to get righteously indignant about something you’re generally clueless about.”
Truly, it is most gracious of you (in a uniquely Southern way) to allow these things.