Ok…I know Yoda specifically tells Luke in ESB that the Dark Side is not more powerful than the Light Side. This makes perfect sense as one would expect them to be two sides of the same coin.
That said you see over and over those who have gone to the Dark Side suggesting that they are a LOT more powerful now that they have embraced the Dark Side (ala Dooku to Yoda in AotC). Yoda does not disagree with him but tells Dooku he still has much to learn while Yoda fends off Dooku’s Force attacks.
Is this just another Lucas inconsistency? Or do the Dark Side practitioners think they are more powerful merely because they can now go offensive with the Force (Light Side practitioners supposedly only use it for defense although there seems to be a gray area there as they use Force Push and such on enemies). Even with the offensive use of the Force you still get the impression that the Dark Side has made the person who embraced it more powerful…doubtless part of its seductive lure. I doubt that ex-Jedi using the Dark Side would really be fooled into thinking they had gained mroe power unless it were actually true.
Yes, and my own pet observation is that good guys only appear to win in the Star Wars universe when they go nuts, lose it, and then come “back from the brink.” I take from this that you can’t beat the dark side practitioners without using the dark side (for at least a brief time) yourself.
So basically, it’s a bunch of Lucas babble that he does not have the consistency to follow through on in terms of actual movie action and plot.
This will seem like a huge digression, but I actually really like the Kung-Fu TV series (with Cain, when he is older) for that reason. For once, the really badass guy who is supposed to be quite powerful actually does generally kick ass without much effort (i.e. the low level flunkies are not testing his limits, and once he figures out what is going on, he usually mauls the big baddies with aplomb as well).
I understand it is needed for drama, but I get tired of the worlds “best X or Y” always getting his ass kicked and barely pulling out the victory in every fight.
Well, in terms of force powers, the Dark Side certainly has more uber powers. All but the most powerful of Jedi are vulnerable to Force Lightning, for example, and Grip is just so much cooler than push. Dark Side users are also allowed (or rather, not prohibited by anybody) to use these offensive powers on anybody they see fit. I think the light Jedi only use offensive powers on non- and lesser-sentients like cannon fodder droids. An exception that may somewhat violate this principle is their using Mind Trick to brainwashe the masses, but apparently they don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
If any of the Star Wars games can be considered canon, the Dark Side is immeasurably powerful against all non-Force-wielders. You can fry entire groups of enemies in a matter of seconds, instead of passively healing your wounds and such and relying on your lightsaber (which, at best, can only kill one or two people a second unless they happen to be standing in a very tight group). It’s so powerful that even against force users, the Light side can really only cope with it by having Absorb-like powers which negate the dark side effects (more or less what Yoda used in the movie).
Actual force abilities aside, there’s probably a more fundamental reason. Normal Jedi are unconcerned with power except as a means to keep the peace, better themselves, etc. Jedi limit themselves to what is necessary, not what is possible, because they have no desire to do otherwise. The Sith, on the other hand, pursue power for its own sake and are not limited by stupid little things like morals or laws, so they’re free to use whatever force powers and social methods they like. The true power of the Dark Side comes simply from its ability to allow its followers to reach their full potentials. Any sufficiently powerful Jedi can basically become a god, but few choose to do so. Those who try to, naturally, are said to have fallen to the Dark Side. The Dark Side isn’t so much an external set of influences or a certain set of force powers over another; it’s simply a re-prioritizing in the Jedi’s life: The Jedi (Sith, now) shifts his focus away from the communities that he was once a part of and towards himself and his power. Kinda like politicians, eh?
WAG - the dark side has got more offensive powers but it makes your teeth all rotten and in death, you are destined to fall off Very High Places; the light side is more defensive, you get to accumulate sexual energy and in death, you become More Powerful Than You Can Imagine.
Think of all the losers in the world that would rather stick up a 7-Eleven than go out and get a job. Doing the right thing (following the path of Light) is hard; copping out (following the path of Dark) is easy.
Well, all I know from Star Wars is the movies, but it seems like the Dark Side keeps getting it’s ass handed to it.
And ultimately, when Annakin tosses Palpatine into the Endor city Ewok wanna zap-zap pit, that can be read as the Light Side winning. It just took a while to get there.
Annakin killed Ben but only when Ben wasn’t really trying anymore, and it really led indirectly to the Light Side winning round 1.
I just think the Dark Side doesn’t have the “Big Picture” view of what being more powerful is.
It depends on how you define “powerful.” The dark side is more powerful if your idea of power is electrocuting people with your bare hands. The light side is more powerful if your idea of power is building a peaceful, interstellar republic that lasts for thousands of years.
“Powerful” as in a mano-y-mano, Yoda vs. Dooku, WWF Smackdown sort of powerful.
No doubt left to themselves the evil Sith could produce a thousand year Empire. It might suck to live in and be evil but with little to no outside challenge doubtless they could pull it off.
I wasn’t asking you how you define powerful. It was a rhetorical question. Followers of the dark side define it the way that you do, and think that their ability to destroy makes them stronger than the Jedi. The Jedi, on the other hand, see the Force as a generative power, something used to create. They are not as adept at destruction as the Sith, but are better at healing, building communities and alliances, and encouraging the spread of prosperity and knowledge. The Sith specifically cannot create an Empire that could rival the Republic in size and longevity. They had tried before, and their empires always collapsed under betrayal and civil war within a few generations. This was the impetus for the rule that there would only be two Sith: master and apprentice. Any more than that, and they consume themselves fighting each other, instead of the Jedi.
I think that while the Dark Side gives the practioner more Force powers and the ability to use the Force agressively, the Dark Side of the Force controls the practioner more than the practioner controls the Force. It’s almost like the Dark Side practioners lose their free will and become slaves to greed and power. This is why it is so hard to come back from the Dark Side.
People keep saying the Dark Side is really just another part of the Force. I think it’s pretty obvious this isn’t true. The Dark side is what happens when someone taps into that corruption and hate that living beings are prone to now and then. That’s why Palpatine’s body was so decayed - he was living corruption. A Dark Side user is tapping in, to some extent, to the same force, but grpwing it, amplifying it, through the Dark Side.
While they may gain in sheer raw force, they lose in flexibility. The Dark isn’t more powerful, because they’re actually losing many powers. They simply have the ability to kill very well. Aside from that, they’re even better trained than the Jedi in the killing arts, it seems.
Indeed, Palpatine left most of the Republic intact - he just transformed it into something more to his liking. While supposedly he and Darth did train many apprentices, those were very weak and/or focused in ability, not nearly a match for either of the two Sith Lords.
I don’t think we’ve seen that “over and over,” though. We’ve only seen a few Jedi-on-Jedi match-ups, and the only rule is that if you’re a more experienced fighter, you’re more likely to win. Here are the only ones I can think of:
Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader: There was no sign at all that Obi-Wan was going to lose; it was an even match. He threw the fight, to help the Millenium Falcon get away and as some kind of penance for whatever is going to happen this May.
Luke vs. Darth Vader: Luke left his training early, and Darth Vader’s had tons more experience. No contest.
Luke vs. The Emperor and Darth Vader: 2 on 1. And the sun was in his eyes. Plus there was a lot of personal stuff going on there.
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul: Obi-Wan was still in training, so he basically just got in the way. Qui-Gon was both desperate to stop being in The Phantom Menace, and to help Obi-Wan. I forget how that one ended other than that Darth Maul ended up in two, and I’m sure as hell not going to watch it again to verify, so I’ll just call that one a draw.
Dooku vs. Yoda and Anakin: Anakin was screwed because he’s still a noob. Yoda was partly concerned with getting Anakin out of trouble, but in the fight itself, was kicking ass. IIRC, he’s pretty much winning when Dooku runs away with his midochlorians between his legs.
Do we have another source for “the Dark Side isn’t more powerful than the Light Side” than Yoda? Because it seems to me that with that quote Yoda may have been subtly discouraging young flyboy Luke from going down the Dark path. (Unreliable narrator, yadda yadda.) And we know what a flexible hold Jedi Masters have on the truth when their apprentices are concerned: if the Light Side is more powerful than the Dark Side from a certain point of view (it makes the Force-user in question a better-rounded person, for example), then Yoda’s statement to Luke doesn’t necessarily mean that the Dark Side couldn’t kick the Light Side’s ass in a mano-a-mano fight.
Which neatly answers another perpetual Star Wars gripe – how come the Storm Troopers are always such freakin lameasses? Cause most of the time you see 'em fighting freakin Jedi-in-training or those with dozens of years of experience.
I figured that it meant that the Jedi who turns to the Dark Side advances more quickly at first in being able to use powers, but that eventually they reach a limit to what they can learn about the Force because they are driven by emotions. So while it takes a “good” Jedi much longer to master the Force, they do not face the limitations that come with the emotional drive and therefore can advance further…but in the meantime, the Dark Side guys have been able to use the cool force powers for a long time because they took the quick and easy route.
That’s all a WAG, of course. I don’t really know anything about Star Wars other than what I saw in the movies.