I was not sure where to put this. I don’t even want to start a debate, I just want to know what people think about this, but it seems like GD subject matter, so…
After 9/11 the US wanted everyone to help us up root terrorism, “if you aren’t with us your against us” type thing. Now Israel is trying to fight terrorism, and we are asking them to stop. Shouldn’t we be right in there helping them out if we are really engaged in a war against terror?
W wants to attack Iraq. He needs the cooperation of Arab states to do so, so he has to lean on Israel to stop their assault on the Palestinians so as not to alienate the Arabs.
I see. Thanks!
The war on terror and demanding a pull-out are not incompatible. Quite simply, Israel’s strategy is not an effective one for stopping the suicide bombings. The occupied territories are not Afghanistan, and the suicide bombers are not Al-Qaeda, so the tactics used in Afghanistan.
In both instances, the idea is to demolish the infrastructure, to eliminate or reduce the ability to conduct further terrorist attacks. But in Al-Qaeda’s case, the infrastructure was (relatively) sophisticated - an ability to manage finances, direct operations across international borders, detailed planning, etc.
In the situation in Israel today, the “infrastructure” is a few pounds of explosives, bus fare, and an embittered person willing to give up his or her life. A military assault can’t destroy that infrastructure. Indeed, Israel’s military assault probably strengthens that infrastructure by producing more embittered Palestinians.
Besides which, Sharon is doing much more than simply “rooting out terrorists.” An overlooked incident was Israel’s attack on the PA’s Preventive Security Force’s headquarters. The PSF was one of the very few Palestinian forces not engaged in combat with Israel. This leads to the suspicion that Sharon is using the situation to dismantle the PA and overturn Oslo. This is what Bush wants to prevent.
Sua
One could also argue that the current Israeli actions are terrorist acts as well, and asking Sharon to stop 'em is one form of fighting terrorism. At least, I can’t think of a reason why Israel is attacking the non-terrorist, peacekeeping infrastructure of the West Bank.
From The Los Angeles Times:
But hasn’t Arafat’s Fatah party sponsored suicide bombings?
>> Why is the US asking Isreal to pull out?
>> Because they are not using a condom and there is a risk of pregnancy? At least that’s the reason I pull out 
Does the US really want Israel to pull out? It took them a week to start speechifying and Powell still isn’t there. I would think that the US could get them to pull out immediately and Powell could be there the next day.
The US is asking because they hope that will be good enough for the Arab states.
Are you referring to the PLO? How can you call them “non-terrorist, peacekeeping” is they refuse to condemn terrorism, in Arabic, to their own people?
(Yes, I did see your cite about the Palestinean police who have made a habit of not arresting terrorists until an incredible amount of pressure has built up on them, and then releasing them a few days later when the heat dies down. That doesn’t count either.)
The U.S.'s War on Terrorism is supposed to take many forms…not all military actions. Apparently, the Bush Administration feels that Israel’s actions, although understandable, are not helpful in the long run (probably because the U.S. wants good relations with the Muslim world and there is little support anywhere for Israel invading Palistinian lands). I also suspect that the Bush Admin would prefer to be in the drivers seat for any action against terrorism rather than having other countries taking the War into their own directions. But who knows for sure? It would be nice if the Bush Admin. would tell us more about their intentions/plans. There seems to be a lot going on that U.S. citizens are not privvy to. I suppose some stuff needs to remain secret in order to ensure success…but secrecy should not sit well in the minds of Americans.
The same way I don’t consider Tim McVeigh’s family and relatives terrorists. Guilt by association is a no-no, last I checked.
How about sniping at disabled grandmothers as they’re leaving Palestinian hospitals?
"The most recent victim of the violence here was among the dead buried Tuesday. Widad Sufran, a hard-of-hearing grandmother in her 50s, had gone to the hospital in the morning to have a cast removed from her leg. That done, she began to hobble home on her cane.
“An Israeli sniper from a nearby building shot her down about 50 yards from the hospital’s entrance, according to doctors who witnessed the shooting. The ambulance crew that tried to reach her also came under fire, the witnesses said.”
–Los Angeles Times, “A Brief Pause to Take Stock of the Living and the Dead,” April 3, 2002
Keeve what you have written here is called “conflation”. The PSF is not the PLO. The PSF, referred to by both rjung and myself is, as expressly admitted by Israel, not involved in terrorism, yet its headquarters was subjected to a deliberate assault nonetheless.
As for your claim that the PSF is worthy of attack because it hasn’t arrested and held terrorists, I confess I have no idea whether or not arresting such people is part of the PSF’s jurisdiction. Even if it were, however, I think you go too far in equating lack of action against something with being that thing. Would you endorse Bosnian Muslim attacks on U.S. forces there because those forces, charged with arresting war criminals, have failed to make serious efforts to arrest the Bosnian Serb leadership?
Sua
There is no right or wrong side here. Both sides have legitimate greviences against the other. Palestine has done little to stop the terror bombing and Israel has done little to defuse the situation. On the other hand, Palestine is an occupied “nation” and Israel has spent the past 50 years surrounded by enemies who have expressed a desire to drive them into the sea.
A long term solution will not come about through military conquest. Israel is not going to gain anything by alienating the rest of the world either. Right or wrong, APCs and Merkava tanks rolling into refugee camps don’t play well on TV.
Since we are the de facto world leaders, our job should be to play mediator and try to broker a peace plan. It should not be to blindly take one side or the other.
By the way, I support Israel, but I think this Sharon guy is a little nuts.
Nice going, reinforcing the old sexual metaphor of war. Violence against countries connected with rape and violence against women. It’s such a macho power trip, when “fuck” can either mean sex, or destructive violence against your enemy. All the more reason for feminists to support pacifism and for pacifists to support feminism.
A few years ago, Tariq Ali was interviewing a Pakistani army general who said, “Pakistan was the condom that America used to enter Afghanistan. When you’re done using it, you just throw it away.”
I can’t see how cutting water supply, cutting electricity, and making sweeps through Palestinian settlements willy-nilly with heavily armed soldiers not considered a form of terrorism.
I tried searching for the second quote, and came up with nothing, even searching for just “an israeli sniper from a nearby building” I didn’t come up with anything from April 3. Where did you get this, exactly?
Sorry, I didn’t check the archives. My above statement was incorrect.
The army of Israel is fighting the same war as the Americans et al in Afghanistan, a war on terrorism. Arafat has used the instrument of terror for political ends. The woman would-be suicide bomber who was arrested by the Israelis admitted in an interview with American television that if Arafat specifically forbad the use of such tactics, she and many others like her would obey him. Israel was fully justified in entering Palestinian territory to arrest those who are organizing this abhorrent targeted killing of civilians. The army discovered in Jenin and other towns many bomb-making factories, and each one they destroy saves the lives of countless innocent men, women and children, Does anybody believe for a moment that the USA would tolerate such actions against its citizens, masterminded from a neighbouring territory, without acting in precisely the same manner as the Israelis. It is dreadful that innocent Palestinians are suffering but the responsibility for this lies squarely at the door of Chairman Arafat. I applaud the Israelis for refusing to have any more dealings with this treacherous, vainglorious man. The sooner he disappears from the pages of history the sooner this tortured region can begin to find its way to a just peace settlement.
Because we don’t want to get pregnant.
Dalovin’ Dj
don’t kill me.
Arafat isn’t just neglecting to stop terrorism by Palestinians, he is actively supporting it. He’s funding it. He’s supplying weapons for them. He’s inciting it with virulent speeches in Arabic. He’s specifically calling for more of it.
He is as much responsible for the terrorism in Israel as Osama Bin Laden is responsible for the WTC attacks.
The people who refuse to look at the evidence and refuse to believe what’s going on are simply wrong. The evidence against Arafat is incontrovertible.
Part of the reason for the Israeli incursion is to collect evidence and intelligence against the bombers. And so far, just about everything they’ve found points directly at Arafat. They have found huge caches of prohibited weapons right inside his compound. They have found itemized invoices for bomb-making parts signed by Arafat himself. There is simply no question that he is responsible for a large percentage of the terrorist attacks.
Admittedly, there are other terrorist organizations operating that are probably beyond Arafat’s control. Hamas and Hizbollah are active in this fight, and they aren’t controlled by Arafat.