Why is the US so opposed to the International Criminal Court?

UDS: Is English your native language? I ask this because you’re either just flat out not understanding the written word or intentionally refusing to understand it. Or worse, and you can see the statement I have in ALL CAPS below, you’re misquoting me on purpose.

Here’s what you said:

No shit. Next time, read what’s posted.

[quote]
Perhaps I misunderstood you and, if so, I apologise. What I understood was as follows.[/'quote]

You decided all by your lonesome to understand what you thought followed from what little of what I actually wrote. Next time, read the entire freaking thiing.

Exactly. So far, so good. Maybe you really do understand English.

Bullshit. Let me repeat that: Bullshit. What you put in parentheses is what you decided all by your lonesome that I said. What I freaking said is what I freaking posted. Scroll up and you’ll see that I said the same freaking countries from the same freaking planet. Nowhere did I freaking say that the freaking UN would be freaking selecting those folks.

Well, what I did say was that since the same mofos are running the government in one country when that country selects its rep to the UN, then it’s a safe bet that when those same mofos select their candidate to the ICC they’ll probably select someone reflecting their government’s point of view.

Then you either did fail or should’ve failed the college course in Critical Thinking. I didn’t say what you decided all by your lonesome that I did. PLUS YOU INTENTIONALLY CHANGED WHAT I WROTE IN YOUR LATEST QUOTE.

DON’T EVER FREAKING DO THAT AGAIN!

And since it’s not an argument I actually made, I don’t give a flying fuck about your BS opinion about something you made up that I said.

Now, that’s valid. There’s still the issue that even our allies tend to gang up in some anit-American stints.

NO YOU MADE UP SOMETHING I DIDN’T SAY! See above.

Don’t give a fuck since I didn’t advance that argument.

'Tain’t my fault you can’t understand written English. Take it up with those who failed to teach you.

a) Composed of folks appointed by governments of countries of Planet Earth.

b) Behaviour of one set can be seen as indicative of the expected behaviour the governments they represent expect.

My boss is Danish. Has lived here in the US for over 25 years now, but has not applied for (or cares to, even) US citizenship. I discussed the matter with him last night over dinner (he often has some very good opinions, a rather “best of both worlds” scenario).

He disagrees with the court in the first place, but only now because of what it represents to the US (though it could, in principle, apply to anyone). It represents, in his estimation, a means for countries to apply pressure to countries for other reasons. neither he nor I feel that any nation is above that level of pettiness.

A nation like the UK versus a nation like France: they don’t have that much to gain from such political boondoggles. While the potential for abuse remains, the benefits from it are fractional. However, it does present a great forum for abuse of larger nations by smaller ones.

I think the court would be a great idea. An international forum for inspection of such issues is “a good idea” to me in theory. In practice, however, it seems impossible to construct it without the potential for abuse.

I won’t accept the notion that, “Hey, I don’t think it will happen because we are all nice guys.” If that is what is holding your court system up, it is not a very good court system.

My boss and I agree in this case: the court is not practical. No nation should give up their soveriegn power to try criminals. Its potential for abuse is huge, and the reward for abuse is higher when the US walks in the door as it presents an avenue for poltical extortion, basically.

I don’t think “but hey, we’re all friends here” is enough to warrant walking into such a scenario. It is a shame, IMO, that a system cannot be set up which is powerful enough to accomplish what it should and yet not be a forum for extortion. But, that is how it seems to be, and so any nation, in my opinion, is foolish to join it.

Yes, it certainly is. Unfortunately, neither the United States nor any other democratic nation can avoid prosecuting people who, in fact, have not committed any crime – and doing so with alarming frequency, if recent reports concerning the death penalty are to be believed. Why should we believe that the ICC will be any different.

Monty, chill out. UDS is being pretty polite and doing a good job in analysing the topic at hand.

sailor: And intentionally misquoting me and telling me that’s what I said. Violation of the board rules, that. I’ll chill when he ceases and desists from that.

Hi Monty

This is getting heated, and I really don’t want it to. I’m genuinely sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented you, and all I want to do is to clarify the issue we are both discussing.

In answer to the points you raise.

Yes, I’m a native speaker of English.

And this in fact is what you posted, and what we are invited to scroll up and read.

As a native speaker of English, I attach some meaning to the word “same”. I understand it to mean in this context that the countries advancing candidates for judgeship on the ICC are the same countries who are placing reps in the General Assembly, where ganging up on the US is such a deplorably common occurrence. That is, in each case, the member states of the UN.

And nowhere did I say that you did. I said that you said that the member states of the UN would be selecting the judges. I still think, as a native speaker of English, that it’s a fair reading of what you wrote.

The altenative reading is this. Some countries which are members of the UN appoint representatives to the General Assembly which gang up on the US. The countries which will appoint judges to the ICC will be members of the UN. Therefore they will appoint judges who will gang up on the US. This reading did occur to me, but I read your posts a lot, Monty, and I have too much respect for you to imagine that you would ever put forward such an obviously specious argument. I haven’t taken a “college course in Critical Thinking” but I can still recognise an illicit major when I see one and so, I’m sure, can you.

That is indeed what you said. But you’ll have spotted the gap in the argument. It’ doesn’t stand up unless the countries who have appointed these biassed reps to the General Assembly are also in a position to nominate judges for election to the ICC. And this in turn is true only if the countries concerned have ratified the Rome Statute, which you haven’t argued or attempted to demonstrate, or if it is assumed that all the members of the General Assembly can nominate judges for election to the court, or it if it is assumed that every country which appoints a representative to the General Assembly is disposed to gang up on the US, which is plainly not the case. I thought you were making the assumption that all members of the UN could participate in the selection of judges since, once the other alternatives were dismissed, it seemed to be implicit in your argument. Obviously I was wrong. I apologise.

No, I didn’t. In my last post, I quoted what you wrote, in full, using the quote facility embedded in the SMDB system, and making no changes. I did not “intentionally change” what you wrote. You may feel that in my subsequent discussion I unfairly or inaccurately paraphrased what you said, but that’s not the same thing at all.

This argument I flatly reject, on the grounds that it defies logic and experience. The argument is that the behaviour of a group consisting of all (or virtually all) of the governments of states on earth is indicative of the behaviour of a sub-group of the governments of the states of earth. In other words, the behaviour of the member states of the General Assembly can be used to predict the behaviour of the member states of the OECD, or NAFTA, or NATO, or the OAU, or UNCLOS, or . . . But if we accept that the state of the earth are diverse, the argument is obviously false.

Monty: You were NOT misquoted. Stop lying.

Well crap; I didn’t see your reply to Monty before I posted, UDS. I apologize. To you.

xeno: Blow it you know where.

UDS:

Try that with your English teacher and see what grade you get.

Monty, could you please explain to this native english speaker what the difference between what you posted and UDS’ interpretation of it? I’m not sure I see the distinction.

Better yet, Mojo (and, of course, UDS), please see:

In which Monty lambasts himself.

[Moderator Hat ON]

Monty, if you do not post more civilly STARTING RIGHT NOW, I will ban you. I’ve seen one outburst too many. Flying off the handle and then apologizing does not absolve you of past behavior, and I know you know the rules here.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

I picked Libya as an example of a hostile country. If Libya is not a participant in the ICC, I assume there are plenty of other countries that participate who are anti-US.

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It’s pretty easy for me to see. If the ICC is biased against the US on substantive issues, why wouldn’t it be biased on procedural issues?

In other words, if the ICC sees an accidental bombing (by the US) as an intentional war crime, it will also see a bona fide US investigation as a sham. Thus it would only require the flimsiest of evidence.

Just to give some respect, thanks to those participating in this thread. I have learned a lot, both about the ICC and the US’s opposition.

UDS - you are a fantastic debater, the reason I read this board.

I didn’t say stop.

Sam, serial lurker.

And by the way, I think that the International Court of Justice provides a good example AGAINST the ICC.

Does anyone remember this case?

Sorry to sound jingo-istic, but I’m uncomfortable with the idea of these international courts imposing (or attempting to impose) their values on the United States and its citizenry.

Also, I believe that the judges on the ICJ must be approved by a majority of the UN Security Council. ICC judges need only a vote from the participating nations. (Feel free to correct me!!) If this is so, then the ICC could potentially be worse than the ICJ.

Okay lucwarm, one question. Which part of that ruling do you find wrong?

Lucwarm - the ICJ is not attempting to impose its values on the United States. The US has voluntarily signed and ratified the Vienna Convention, and has thereby accepted an obligation to comply with it, so the “values” imposed here were voluntarily adopted by the United States. (And, if I recall correctly, the US played a significant part in the preparation and drafting of the Vienna Convention. But I may be wrong and it’s not, strictly speaking, relevant.)

You’re quite right about the selection of the judges of the ICJ; they need a majority of votes both in the General Assembly and in the Security Council (although, significantly, the Permanent Members of the Security Council have no veto).

In your earlier post you point out that, if the ICC is biassed against the US on substantive issues, it will also be biassed on procedural issues. True, but that assumes that the ICC will be biassed against the US. Nobody has produced any serious reason for thinking that this might be so and, I think significantly, it is not one of the reasons given by the US government for its reluctance to ratify. I’m open to correction, but I think their concerns relate to the prosecutor rather than the judges.

I don’t think it can simultaneously be argued that the ICC will be too “politicised” and also that the Security Council should have a greater degree of control over the doings of the ICC. The Security Council is a highly political body, and the second measure would make the ICC more political, not less.

I do understand the reasons why the US has concerns about the ICC. But the call for the Security Council to have a greater role suggests to me that, far from wanting the ICC to be a non-politicised body, they want to ensure that the politicisation of the ICC is a process in which the US has a signficant role. I can see, obfviously, why that would be in the interests of the US but, equally obviously, its a position which is not calculated to appeal to the rest of the world community (except the four other permanent members of the Security Council). So its perhaps not surprising that the US finds itself a little isolated here. And, while the US is entitled to take the attitude it is taking, I think it would be a mistake to get in a huff about the fact that others are not taking the same line. There is no reason why they should.

I concurr that UDS is doing a fantastic job here.

>> Sorry to sound jingo-istic, but I’m uncomfortable with the idea of these international courts imposing (or attempting to impose) their values on the United States and its citizenry.

lucwarm, this is just plain mistaken in so many ways. The question is not whether accepting the jurisdiction of the court is a perfect thing but rather whether it is better to join or not to join. That is the question.

Your argument can be made at any level. The several states can argue that by joining the union other states would impose their values on them at times and it is very true. It is just not so bad because in the same measure they can participate in the life of the other states and if it is all mutually agreed it tends to be a good thing in that it affords ways of resolving disagreements. Some backward state could say they want to teach evolution and christianity in their schools and do not want the other states through the federal government imposing their values on them. But they know on the whole they are better off as part of the Union than isolated.

By voluntarily joining the treaty the US is bound by it but it has the advantage that other nations are also, in the same measure, subject to US influence.

The object of the court is to judge certain specific crimes, and I hope we all agree the US agrees these crimes do deserve to be judged and punished. By staying out of this treaty the US loses the oportunity to influence the court in its composition and rulings which will be the precedent and history of that court. The US

Isolationism is always a bad choice for both sides and is not a viable alternative for the US if it wants to remain a major power. This is a vicious circle because as the US stays more and more out of international bodies, it will lose the capacity to influence them and then it will see them as alien and withdraw even more. Many Americans will say that is fine and the US can live isolated but that is just not realistic. The US needs the trade and the support of other countries and needs to cultivate relations with those countries.

lucwarm, the cases of the German brothers and other cases where the US has breached its obligations under international agreements are (not only a shame on the US) disturbing and dangerous because in exchange for the promises made in those treaties other countries give the US certain promises and guarantees for US citizens in their jurisdiction. The US acquired certain rights in exchange for giving other countries certain rights. Foreign nationals under US jurisdiction get certain rights in exchange for US nationals getting the same rights in the other countries. Should the US honor its treaties? And, if it doesn’t, why should it expect other countries to do it?

I remember Madeleine Albright being interviwed about one such case on a Sunday morning TV program and some jingoistic politician was taing the line of “we don’t care what other countries think” (which probably gets him votes at home) and she was trying to tone it down because, as she said, one very important part of her job was to protect American citizens in other countries, and that kind of rethoric was not helpful at all.

Warning – very long post!

As I see it, the US really has two problems, one of which is probably unavoidable on any terms.

It’s been universally accepted for several centuries that international law prohibits certain acts, e.g. the massacre of civilians who have surrendered. Until relatively recently, decisions about whether and how to punish these acts have been political decisions, and the procedures used have been political procedures.

For more than a century, the international community has been engaged in a process of broadening by consensus or agreement the categories of acts forbidden. Thus we have the Geneva Conventions on what is and is not permissible in warfare. We have treaties regulating the use of poison gas and dum-dum bullets. We have the Convention on Genocide.

The more we agree that certain acts are forbidden, and the more modern communications enables the whole world to learn about the commission of these acts, the more the international community finds purely political methods of punishing them inadequate. For more than half a century, starting I think with the Nuremburg and Tokyo tribunals, the international community has been developing legal procedures for indentifying and punishing internationally forbidden acts.

However these tribunals have still been established, and have operated in, an intensely political context. For example the Nuremburg tribunal could only be established after the total military defeat of Germany, and it was composed entirely of prosecutors and judges from the allied powers. Were it not for the overwhelming evidence of appalling crimes, many observers might have been tempted to say that the tribunal was a travesty, the victors’ revenge masquerading as a legal process. Plainly, as a long-term model for investigating and punishing international crimes, it won’t do. Subsequent tribunals – Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia – were not actually established and operated by declared enemies of the accused, but they were still established after the acts complained of, and in the context of the political or military collapse of the government of which the accused were members or agents. And of course there have been many appalling examples of the grossest human rights violations which no tribunal has ever been established to address – China, Cambodia.

If we take seriously the idea of trying and punishing international crimes, a standing tribunal is pretty well inevitable. And even if we don’t take it seriously, the process of creating international crimes, and of trying and punishing them at least selectively, is too far advanced to be reversed, or even stopped. The international community wants effective measures to address gross human rights violations. We cannot rely for ever on a system which only works when offending states have collapsed either militarily or politically, and often not even then. Sooner or later, there is going to be a standing international tribunal.

And, as I say, this presents two problems for the US. The first is that the US, as the world’s greatest superpower, is far and away most heavily committed country internationally. It has soldiers and other agents operating in more than 100 countries, mostly in trouble spots of one kind or another. Without any bias at all, an enormous number of the incidents and situations which might give rise to investigations are going to involve US personnel, directly or indirectly.

Related to this is the fact that there have, to date, been so few cases in which specific acts have been tried as international crimes. And, although the treaties dealing with international crimes are numerous and mostly very detailed, lawyers know that it is only through the experience of cases, decisions and judgments that we can really develop a full understanding of where the boundaries of a crime lie. So there’s going to be a awful lot of cases involving actions whose legality is questionable. They’ll be, in effect, test cases. And a good number of those could involve US personnel.

None of this is the result of any bias against the US; it is the consequence of this process starting at a time when the US happens to be the dominant superpower in the world.

The second problem, of course, is that there is some bias against the US in the international community. Precisely because the US is the world’s greatest superpower, it has a lot of enemies – countries whose interests conflict with the US, or who simply like to see the US discomfitted. And they will take every opportunity to make complaints against the US, or demand investigations of the US.

While these are legitimate concerns for the US, they are also difficult concerns to address, other than by preventing altogether the establishment of an effective mechanism for investigating, prosecuting and punishing international crimes. I think the preferred solution of the US would be

(a) to allow the court to be established,

(b) to accept that, for the reasons mentioned, the US will frequently be the subject of investigations and prosecutions, and

© to make sure that the investigation/prosecution/judgment structures will effectively filter out the cases that arise out of bias or doubtful matters.

I think they have failed to achieve the latter objective to their satisfaction, and they fall back on refusing to ratify the treaty and seeking to prevent it from coming into force which, despite the administration’s strong rhetoric, is not a position they are entirely comfortable with. If nothing else, failure to participate in the ICC deprives the US of a potentially very powerful non-military tool in the “war against terrorism”, and it leaves the US lined up with the likes of China, Syria, North Korea and Iraq in rejecting the ICC. In fact, it exposes the US to the risk of having the war against terrorism characterised as deeply hypocritical; “They say they are opposed to terrorism, but they undermine attempts to investigate and prosecute terrorist acts because they fear that they themselves will be the subject of investigations and prosecutions. Is this not tantamount to an admission that they are systematically engaged in the very acts they claim to oppose?”

For all these reasons, I think the administration is deeply unhappy to find itself in the corner that it is in. Reading between the lines of the public statements, I think the US has tried in negotiation to have the office of the prosecutor subjected to some kind of control by the Security Council. It has failed to so do but, perhaps more signicantly, it has failed to persuade such reliable allies as the UK and Australia that it is necessary or important to do so. Both have ratified the Rome Statute; neither has expressed any reservations or concerns about the proscution system (although the UK made a formal declaration about its views on unrelated matters). The UK and Australia could expect to face the same problems as the US (albeit to a lesser degree) since they are closely aligned with the US and have troops stationed in a number of other countries, but they felt able to ratify, and are not supporting the US on this matter. This would cause me to question the wisdom of the US stance.

Well, I think that the ICJ might have overstepped its bounds. Certainly the American courts seemed to think so.

But assuming that what the ICJ tried to do in this case was within its authority, then perhaps the US should not have entered the treaty in the first place.

See, we’re debating whether the US should enter treaty A. I point out a negative aspect of entering treaty B. The fact that we did in fact already enter treaty B is irrelevant.

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Well, earlier you seemed to be arguing that even if the ICC were biased against the USA, they wouldn’t/couldn’t bring charges over incidents like the recent events in Afghanistan because a US investigation exonerating the particular soldiers would be a complete defense. I take it you’re giving up that position?

I think that the argument presented by other posters is pretty persuasive: The Judges of the ICC will be chosen by the member nations, many of whom are anti-US. It follows that the ICC may have many anti-US judges.

I would also point out that much of the rest of the world sees things differently from Americans. Going back to the Afghanistan example, I remember seeing results of surveys in various countries as to whether people thought that the US should enter Afghanistan. The disparity was shocking.

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I’m not arguing that the Security Council should have a higher degree of control - I’m just pointing out a difference between the two courts. Do you agree that without Security Council participation, there is a greater likelihood of anti-US bias?

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I’m not in a huff about it at all. What mainly troubles me is the potential consequences of the ICC treaty.

Do you think that there should be a UN Security Council (with permanent members) at all? Why should certain select countries have extra influence over the UN?