Why is there so much violence in hockey?

If they were going for massive fights they wouldn’t have severely curtailed the old bench clearing brawls that use to erupt. Hab/Nordique “Battle of Quebec” type things for example.

I think it does come down to rink size though. There simply isn’t the room there used to be. Watch NHL players on international ice and you’ll notice the flow changes markedly. There’s more room to get away from clutching and grabbing, better passing and fewer opportunities to have either frustrations build up or opportunities for the opposing team to target your better players. The enforcers are the MADs agents of the NHL; reduce the threat and the need for them fades.

If two guys want to fight in a hockey game, why not let them?

To be fair there are 2 different things being talked about in this thread. Hockey is a violent sport because it involves people moving at high speeds in an enclosed area.
The ‘violence’ that occures during the game is probably no worse than what happens during the course of a NFL game.

Fighting is a different issue because there is a large divide of people who want to ban it, and people who think it is part of the game.

Now, the article in the OP refers to an infamous incident from the end of last season. There is nobody, pro-fighting or anti-fighting, who condones what Bert did to Moore. When you play hockey you are consenting to a certain amount of contact, even ‘violent’ contact. However, nobody expects to be jumped from behind in the manner that Moore was attacked.

Hey, there ain’t room for two smart-ass Simmons in this town. :wink:

I’ve played hockey for about 15 years. I believe there is a place for fighting in hockey. Players sometimes need to police themselves. hockey is also a game about imposing your physical will on someone else. It’s different than in football, because plays are not scripted. Part of it may be caused by advancements in protective equipment. It does not hurt as much anymore to hit someone. this leads to harder hits, which may lead to more fighting.

I do miss the skill aspect of the game, and believe that there is too much fighting, but some fighting is accepted and necessary.

Slight side question-

College hockey seems very physically punishing. Is fighting tolerated at the college level?

Fighting is not tolerated in amateur hockey. Nor is it tolerated in the Olympics.

I believe any fight in college hockey gets a game misconduct and a likely suspension for the next game.

I don’t see why fighting makes Hockey less of a sport. Boxing is a sport, and it’s all about fighting. What’s wrong with a game which has fighting as an integral component?

As for why there is fighting, I believe it’s the combination of a lot of physical contact coupled with the continuous nature of the game. Most sports are either low in physical contact, or if they have physical contact they have breaks between plays to allow everyone to cool down. Football, for example. Imagine how much fighting there might be in Football if people just ran around on the field tackling each other for a minute and a half at a time, and after you were tackled you could jump up and try to tackle the other guy.

In games like Basketball which are continuous like Hockey, physical contact is much more controlled. And when it does happen, it often leads to a fight.

So if your sport causes people to become enraged during play, and they have sticks in their hands, it might be a good thing to allow them a semi-structured way to release their rage. If two players have murderous intent towards each other and fighting is banned, they are more likely to try to take their rage out through dirty checks, high sticks, slashes, etc. And those are the kinds of things that really hurt people. If some guy wants to hurt me, I’d rather he drops his gloves and dukes it out with me instead of taking a run at my knees with a low hit.

Leave fighting in the game. Enforce stick infractions, low hits, boarding rules and other violations that can seriously hurt or kill someone.

Blimey, Sam, sounds like rollerball.

I disagree. Take a boo at Rugby, where you stay on the field for the whole game, just running around tackling, or straight-arming tacklers in the face, or stomping over fallen players in a ruck, etc.? But fights in rubgy are far less common than in NHL hockey.

Of course, for the uninitiated, a hand-off (straight-arming tacklers in the face) must be made with the palm of the hand (not a fist), and players are not allowed to stamp on one another.

On a personal note, of all the American sports, hockey is the one I can watch most easily, largely because it’s fast, low-tech (no microphones and stuff - but perhaps I’m wrong) and doesn’t seem to have time-outs.

Barring notable exceptions (like the fight at the Pacers game), my perfect sporting world would have crowds with the American mindset watching British sports.

Well, there’s now two questions in this thread, the first being the OP’s question (Why is there fighting in hockey?) and a second (So does hockey need fighting?)

1. Why is there so much fighting in hockey?

Contrary to popular belief, sports are not getting more violent. They are in fact getting LESS violent, and almost every major sport has less outright fighting than it used to. Even hockey has fewer fights than it used to. Hockey has only about half as many fights as it did 30 years ago; the 1970s were hockey’s absolute peak of fighting major penalties, never equalled before or since. It’s telling that many people today who claim that fights reduce high sticking have as their formative years the time in hockey history when fights were at their highest. But hockey was certainly a very violent game prior to the 1970s, with lot of fights (as compared to today) and - contrary to what people opposing face protection will tell you - a LOT of high sticking and facial injuries.

That’s true of almost all sports. Baseball was an astoundingly violent sport for the first fity years or so of professional play, and up until the 1950s in-game fights were far, far more common than today. Football used to be far more violent than it is now, and basketball (despite what people would have you believe around the Ron Artest incident) used to be VASTLY more violent than it is now; the NBA began cracking down on fighting in the late 70s, after the Kermit Washington incident.

But hockey has retained the outright fighting that baseball more or less got rid of post-WWII, and that football and basketball banned long ago. This is in part due to three main factors:

  1. It’s codified. Hockey allows fighting to be punished in-game, rather than by ejections, because hockey codifies in-game punishments for physical transgressions; two minutes for this, five for that. Fighting simply slips into the same realm as hooking and elbowing.

  2. Hockey is a more marginal sport, and it’s just more DIFFERENT. Hockey, despite its pretensions to being a Big four sport, is a very separate thing; it absolutely requires a skill no other team sport does, it was historically played in different places, and it’s got a very different, focused fan base.

  3. Unlike any other major pro sport in the USA, hockey is played by men from another country - most of them from a small (population wise) country where hockey is of vast and deep cultural importance. While most hockey teams are in the United States, hockey players are from Canada (most of them, anyway.) The direction, style and and format of hockey is decided by Canadians, while the business direction of the NHL is primarily decided by Americans. It is difficult to explain to an American how important hockey is to Canadians; if you can imagine the USA having a sport with the same importance and cross-cultural connection of baseball, football, basketball and NASCAR combined, that’s what hockey is to Canada.

So hockey is separated from its own audience, and is nurtured and furthered along its evolutionary path in the small towns, house leagues and junior teams of a foreign, arctic country. It’s easier for hockey to choose its own path than it would be for baseball or football, because it’s separated from them.

Hockey has therefore continued on with fighting because the men who run the sport think it needs fighting, and there’s little societal pressure on them to stop it.

All sports have their weird conservative carryovers; in hockey, it’s fighting. Baseball teams actively prohibited their players from training with weights right up to the 1980s, based on a century-old and stupid belief that weight training makes you injury prone. Pro football still does not use professional referees.

2. Does hockey actually need this?

Of course not. It’s preposterous to think you have to have fighting in hockey, for any reason.

The problem with arguing that hockey needs fighting is that *most hockey leagues don’t have fighting. * Fighting in hockey is essentially unique to the NHL and its direct player development leagues. It is nearly unknown in college hockey, European hockey, or minor hockey. Most hockey in the world is played without fighting; it is North American arrogance, and ignorance of people who are unfamiliar with any hockey that doesn’t appear on Sportscentre, that fighting is a common element of hockey. If hockey can be played at the University of Minnesota or in Moogsblatto, Sweden without fighting, then it can be played in Edmonton and Detroit without fighting.

Now, there are two common arguments to support fighting; the less common is that eliminating fighting will reduce fan interest. I think that’s complete baloney inasmuch as most fans who like fighting aren’t even aware there is less fighting now than there used to be. I simply don’t believe for an instant that this will happen. So that’s that; I don’t know what else to say, and if you disagree, well, more power to ya.

Anyway, the most common argument is that fighting reduces other, less desirable types of violence, such as high sticking.

This is simply, flatly untrue. Nobody has ever demonstrated a correlation between fighting and high sticking penalties, or fighting and cheap knee hits, or fighting and any sort of penalty except fighting penalties. There IS limited evidence that high sticking has gone up in the last twenty years, but the reducing in fighting mostly predates this and in any event, high sticking wasn’t higher BEFORE the 1970s fighting peak. High sticking as also been blamed on the introduction of face protection in the minor system and college system; however, to be honest,

a. Since proper face protection essentially eliminates any risk of eye injury, so what? And,
b. The increase in high sticking is better correlated with the allowance of hooking, which causes sticks to be carried at waist level more often.

The notion that one thing must inevitably lead to another is a variation on what Bill James called the “perfect machine” theory, where the assumption is that the way the sport is played now represents a perfect balance of things can should never be changed.

Look, hockey is not something we discovered, like the atomic weight of antimony or the quadratic equation. Hockey is a sport, a human invention, and we can change the rules and the nature of the game at our leisure. If you want to get rid of fighting AND eliminate high sticking AND reduce facial injuries, just do four things:

i. Impose game misconducts and progressive suspensions for fighting.
ii. Impose major penalties for all high sticking, and game misconducts and suspensions for intential high sticking. Start calling it.
iii. Call all hooking penalties and cross checking penalties, which started not being called in the late 80s, so that the sticks will come down.
iv. Make players wear CSA approved face protection.

It’s within our grasp to change the sport.

As for the general notion that fighting regulates violence, I will just point this out; Steve Moore, the marked man, had already fought a Canucks player before he was assaulted. The in-game check and balance that all the fighting advocates SAY is supposed to happen had happened. Moore, who the Canucks thought had pulled a cheap shot, had been given a few knuckle sandwiches. So it was supposed to be over and done with. But what do you know; it’s bullshit. Bertuzzi, who has a long history of trying to injure people, attacked Moore anyway. The notion that fighting prevents injury by preventing cheap shots is simple nonsense.

I work at College Sports Television. ( CSTV ). We are currently the only televised outlet in the United States for hockey this season. :smiley:

Now, someone asked about fighting at the NCAA level. I asked this a few weeks ago of Dave Starman ( see Bio down the page a bit. Dave said that if you fight, you are suspended the remainder of that game unless there is less than 5 minutes on the clock, AND the next game. If there is less than 5 minutes, you are suspended two games. For each added infraction in the season of fighting, the suspensions are added one game per fight. So, first fight= remainder of game + another game. Second fight = remainder of game + two games. And, so on.

As for “enforcers” who are sent out to fight, I submit for your consideration the all-time champeen, one Dave “The Hammer” Schultz

32 years ago, The Spectrum was a dangerous place my friends…

Cartooniverse

Does anyone know what % of NHL players are out of Canada now? I should think that it’s a bit lower than it used to be with some of the Europeans joining the league, and perhaps with more American interest in certain parts of the country. Not that I’m arguing RickJay’s point; I think we have cultural drivers in the “difference” of hockey.

Back when there was an NHL …
Canadians made up a little over 50% of all players in the league. An ESPN.com said it was 52.4% down from 66.2% 11 years previously (2003-04 and 1992-93)