Why is Windows so darn complicated?

Factual Questions
1

I recently upgraded to Internet Explorer 7 which, it turns out, doesn’t play nice with Norton Internet Security. So I asked about turning back to IE6. Holy cow, when I read what it took to do that, (registry edits, re-writing code, reboot 60 times, hiring a witch doctor, ect.) I decided it was easier to dump Norton and go with something else. Dumping Norton involved the long uninstall procedure, then downloading and running a separate Norton Removal tool then searching for remnants and manually deleting them. And it’s not just IE and Norton. It’s anything to do with making simple changes in Windows. I’m talking XP here, don’t know about Vista.

Now, I’m not looking to start a “my platform is better” debate, but my first computer, in 1998, was a beige PowerMac G3. I still use it for graphics work. I don’t know about any Mac OS since 9.2, but in 9.2 and previous Mac OS, you know how you uninstall a program? You find it’s folder and drag that to the Trash. Done!

Microsoft has had many years to research and examine Mac operating systems, but in all that time has never been able to figure out how Mac does this. Is the Mac OS code so different and secret that it is impossible to adapt functions to the Windows environment? Are there other factors that make it impossible for Microsoft to allow users simple means to do simple stuff? What is story behind the great divide between “user friendly” and “do not attempt unless you have a degree in computer science”?

Again, not trying to start a debate. Just curious why the difference is so great.

2

[QUOTE=randwill]
I recently upgraded to Internet Explorer 7 which, it turns out, doesn’t play nice with Norton Internet Security. So I asked about turning back to IE6. Holy cow, when I read what it took to do that . . .
[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand the difficulty. From here:

"To uninstall Internet Explorer 7 to return to Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP

  1. Click “Start,” and then click “Control Panel.”
  2. Click “Add or Remove Programs.”
  3. Check “Show Updates” at the top of the dialog box.
  4. Scroll down the list and highlight the version of Internet Explorer 7 that you are running, and then click “Change/Remove.” (If you are running Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2 Preview - March 20 or later, it is not necessary to check “Show Updates.”)
  5. Select the appropriate version of Internet Explorer 7 for your operating system."
3

May I suggest you forget about IE and get Firebox. You’ll be glad you did!

4

Except in my case IE didn’t show up in Add/Remove, not even in the Windows Components section. (This was a fresh install of WindowsXP Pro SP2 Student Edition, for what that’s worth.) So this problem lead me to solutions for THAT situation which were very daunting.

But even the solution you give is 5 steps, not the easy “drag the applications folder to the trash.” And the reasons behind this are what I am curious about.

5

[QUOTE=KlondikeGeoff]
May I suggest you forget about IE and get Firebox. You’ll be glad you did!
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the suggestion. I have Firefox and Opera and I know everybody has their favorite apps and operating systems. That’s not my question.

6

[QUOTE=randwill]
But even the solution you give is 5 steps, not the easy “drag the applications folder to the trash.”
[/QUOTE]
You consider “drag the applications folder to the trash” to be only one step. But that’s only because the Mac is so familiar to you. To make a fair comparison, it’s at least 3 or 4 steps, something like:

  1. Start the Mac equivalent to “My Computer”
  2. Open the Mac euivalent to “Programs”
  3. Find the folder you’re looking for
  4. Drag it to the Trash
7

[QUOTE=randwill]
Except in my case IE didn’t show up in Add/Remove, not even in the Windows Components section. (This was a fresh install of WindowsXP Pro SP2 Student Edition, for what that’s worth.) So this problem lead me to solutions for THAT situation which were very daunting.

But even the solution you give is 5 steps, not the easy “drag the applications folder to the trash.” And the reasons behind this are what I am curious about.
[/QUOTE]

I think you missed the need to “Show Updates” in Add/Remove Programs.

But I also think the answer is that Windows is different from the Mac OS. Some things are harder; some easier.

(For instance, I had a lot of trouble getting Boot Camp Assistant installed on my new Macbook because it’s a hidden folder on the Apple installation disc. Eventually I found that the way to view it was to use the Terminal command “defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles TRUE.” In Windows, I can select View Hidden Files and Folders from the menu.)

8

I have both a PC running Windows XP and a Mac running OS 10.5.1.

Installing programs:
On the Mac, you drag an .app container to “Applications” or a self-created subfolder. Program installed. To remove the program, drag the .app to the trash.

In Windows XP, you run an installer program, which not only places files in your “Program files” subfolder, but also scatters them across various system folders, as well as making registry changes. The startup link appears in a subfolder that usually bears the software company’s name in the startup folder, as well as an icon on your desktop. To uninstall, you might be able to run an uninstallation script from the “Add/remove programs” feature of the control panel - if it appears. Sometimes, even after you’ve uninstalled a program, the entry remains in the add/remove program menu. Even then, not all of the program is removed; various .dll files and temporary files will usually still be scattered across the system, and there will be tens or hundreds of obsolete entries in the registry.

9

[QUOTE=randwill]
Microsoft has had many years to research and examine Mac operating systems, but in all that time has never been able to figure out how Mac does this.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sure they could figure it out, they just chose not to.

A big difference between the way that Windows and Mac programs work is that Windows programs are supposed to make extensive use of dynamically-linked libraries - meaning that, say, when a bug in some common dialog box gets fixed, it gets fixed once for all programs. Of course it causes its own slew of problems, including most notably the cruft that gets left hanging around when you uninstall something, and ‘DLL Hell’ - where updating a library causes some programs (which weren’t set up to cope with it) stop working.

10

[QUOTE=Keeve]
You consider “drag the applications folder to the trash” to be only one step. But that’s only because the Mac is so familiar to you. To make a fair comparison, it’s at least 3 or 4 steps, something like:

  1. Start the Mac equivalent to “My Computer”
  2. Open the Mac euivalent to “Programs”
  3. Find the folder you’re looking for
  4. Drag it to the Trash
    [/QUOTE]

Well, yeah, you can break it down into as many steps as you like.

  1. Locate mouse
  2. Put hand on mouse
  3. Select folder
  4. Move cursor to folder
  5. Hold index finger down
  6. Locate trash
  7. Drag folder to trash
  8. Release finger

Yeah, Macs are a bitch. :rolleyes:

11

IE is really inbeded into windows OS so it may be hard to get rid of. We are offering solutions but you dont seem to want to take them. Firefox beats IE in almost everyway. and Norton is by far the worst program out there. The windows update you installed may not even be listed as “IE7” but rather soemthjing like “Q4353453”

12

To be fair, a lot of the difficulty involved in uninstalling Norton is because Norton is an insidious facehugger of a piece of crapware. It doesn’t want to let go.

13

[QUOTE=ChrisBooth12]
IE is really inbeded into windows OS so it may be hard to get rid of. We are offering solutions but you dont seem to want to take them. Firefox beats IE in almost everyway. and Norton is by far the worst program out there. The windows update you installed may not even be listed as “IE7” but rather soemthjing like “Q4353453”
[/QUOTE]
That’s because I didn’t ask for solutions. I stated I have Firefox above. Re-read my OP to understand the question I am asking.

14

[QUOTE=randwill]
That’s because I didn’t ask for solutions. I stated I have Firefox above. Re-read my OP to understand the question I am asking.
[/QUOTE]
I reread your OP, and still don’t know what you are asking. First you say you don’t want to debate Mac vs Windows, then you start comparing how easy your Mac was, and how hard Windows is. You have violated your own framework for discussion, so I don’t see what it is you want.

15

In the early days of Windows (1.0 - 3.11), you could simply just “drag and drop” (well, it was a touch more complicated than that, but only barely) files. This made it easy for people to pirate software. If a computer had a program you wanted, all you had to do was copy it to a floppy (or two), and you had your own version.

Apparently, this didn’t sit well with the folks at Microsoft (Gates, supposedly, will get spitting mad at the barest mention of piracy), so they came up with the .dll file business, which meant that you now needed an installer to get programs properly installed. Tying the programs into things like the registry is purported to be an outgrowth of this.

Companies like Norton tend to abuse this “feature” for some reason.

16

I think the real, underlying reasons are different.

  1. Microsoft, like many software companies, have adopted a churn-and-burn approach to sales. They try to release very frequent updates even though the quality is poor, and sort it all out later when the clean options are no longer available.

  2. Microsoft has tried very hard to provide short-term backward compatability, with the result that poor choices are very hard to ever get undone. This makes fixing everything the next time that much more complicted.

  3. Bill Gates became embittered by his experience with trying to sell his version of Basic as a young man. It was very popular, and everybody he’d meet would compliment him about it, and he’d say, “Thanks, glad to hear it. Did you pay for your copy?” to which they’d reply “Err, um, no”. Somehow that set the stage for him throughout life to corral as much money as possible no matter how hard that made things for the rest of the world.

As a result everybody uses Windows, which nobody likes, because everybody else uses Windows, even though they don’t like it.

Actually, those last couple lines were more opinion than fact, but there’s some factual basis for the earlier parts…

17

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
I reread your OP, and still don’t know what you are asking. First you say you don’t want to debate Mac vs Windows, then you start comparing how easy your Mac was, and how hard Windows is. You have violated your own framework for discussion, so I don’t see what it is you want.
[/QUOTE]
Here is what I’m asking. Is the Mac OS code so different and secret that it is impossible to adapt functions to the Windows environment? Are there other factors that make it impossible for Microsoft to allow users simple means to do simple stuff? What is story behind the great divide between “user friendly” and “do not attempt unless you have a degree in computer science”?

18

[QUOTE=randwill]
Microsoft has had many years to research and examine Mac operating systems, but in all that time has never been able to figure out how Mac does this. Is the Mac OS code so different and secret that it is impossible to adapt functions to the Windows environment? Are there other factors that make it impossible for Microsoft to allow users simple means to do simple stuff? What is story behind the great divide between “user friendly” and “do not attempt unless you have a degree in computer science”?

Again, not trying to start a debate. Just curious why the difference is so great.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=elmwood]
In Windows XP, you run an installer program, which not only places files in your “Program files” subfolder, but also scatters them across various system folders, as well as making registry changes. The startup link appears in a subfolder that usually bears the software company’s name in the startup folder, as well as an icon on your desktop. To uninstall, you might be able to run an uninstallation script from the “Add/remove programs” feature of the control panel - if it appears. Sometimes, even after you’ve uninstalled a program, the entry remains in the add/remove program menu. Even then, not all of the program is removed; various .dll files and temporary files will usually still be scattered across the system, and there will be tens or hundreds of obsolete entries in the registry.
[/QUOTE]
IMHO, most of these are the fault of the software vendors, not Microsoft. Although I admit that Microsoft encourages it by pushing the registry as the place to store program configurations and information.

It doesn’t have to be this way, at least for many programs. I designed, wrote and sell a piece of software that runs on Windows, from 98 to Vista. It creates exactly one folder on your system, one shortcut, and one program menu entry. Everything the program uses is in that one folder.

It is as easy as it possibly could be to install. You put the disk in the drive and the install process starts automatically, you don’t need to do anything. We do show a prompt window and give the user a chance to abort the install before continuing, just in case in they put the disk in by accident, and we have about three options you can change if you want. The entire install, beginning to end, is five mouse clicks if you use the default settings (almost everyone does). I don’t think it could be any less on a Mac.

To uninstall, click start, click the Uninstall option on the program menu, click to confirm you want to uninstall, click to acknowledge the uninstall is done. Four clicks total and the program is gone completely. All folders, all shortcuts, all icons, everything. Again, I don’t see how it could be any easier or quicker.

So it can be done. Granted that my application is fairly simple, I’m still convinced most of the blame belongs with the software vendors and not with Microsoft.

19

[QUOTE=randwill]
Here is what I’m asking. Is the Mac OS code so different and secret that it is impossible to adapt functions to the Windows environment? Are there other factors that make it impossible for Microsoft to allow users simple means to do simple stuff? What is story behind the great divide between “user friendly” and “do not attempt unless you have a degree in computer science”?
[/QUOTE]

The answers to these questions are written out above by dopers. Please read them instead of going on with your “is it impossible for Windows to be more like Mac” crap.

20

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
I reread your OP, and still don’t know what you are asking. First you say you don’t want to debate Mac vs Windows, then you start comparing how easy your Mac was, and how hard Windows is. You have violated your own framework for discussion, so I don’t see what it is you want.
[/QUOTE]

Seems clear to me. He’s asking WHY some functions in Windows are significantly more complicated and involved than analogous functions in Mac. The comparison you mention was given as an example. I don’t see where he “violated [his] own framework.” It appears you’re reading more into this example than was proffered.