[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
There are many highly competent writers that aren’t WGA members.
[/QUOTE]
Again, this is a conclusion that is not implied by the above comments. As a totality, the WGA would be difficult to replace and represents on the average the best experienced American screenwriters. That doesn’t imply that every single WGA member individually is better than every single non-WGA writer in the world.
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
Here’s reality. If you haven’t made it in a field, the odds are overwhelming that you are either young or bad. People who become doctors in their 40s or marathon runners in their 50s or painters in their 70s make the news because they are such exceptions to the norm.
.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, I’m 35 and if you don’t mind me saying, I don’t think I’m bad, nor do the agencies who have read my stuff and noted that it’s good writing, but the market isn’t right for it right now, or they have too much on their plate, or would you be willing to change this or this or this…
I’m sure you’ll come back and say “sweetie, that means your bad”, but I hope you’ll forgive me for saying, blow me.
I know that you’re desperate to make yourself feel like you’re the best thing since Cinnabon, and I’m sure you are li’l guy, but ‘laughing at’ and cutting down others, the little people who haven’t had the right timing or the right agent or the right format doesn’t speak well to your character.
Ah yes. Much like the angels on the head of a pin, all the good writers that ever were or ever will be exist right now and only in the WAG. Gotcha.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
And, if I might say, Fatgail, you seem to be taking this point a bit personally. I don’t think that’s warranted. The members of the WGA are in general a set of highly skilled and highly experienced screenwriters who would actually be difficult to replace en masse. I am a professional writer, too, and even though I occasionally believe that I could write better scripts than most of the ones I see on television, I do realise that I don’t have the requisite experience and probably not the specific set of skills required. As the WGA Dopers who have posted about the strike have tried to illustrate, being a good writer is not enough to be a good Hollywood screenwriter.
[/QUOTE]
Well, since i fancy myself a writer, and the WGA members in here are telling me I’m basically a pile of shit because i’m not in their union, you can see how I take it personally. But I understand why you can’t say anything against their cause (which I wholly support. It’s their haughty “no one in the world can do this but us” attitude that gets me) because it’s sucking their ass that may get you a job some day. If it were a contemporary mainstream fiction strike, I’d be doing the same thing.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
You can use whatever weaselly phrasing you want, but I was basically forced to join the union.
[/QUOTE]
And I bet you were forced to accept the same salary, too – the one that the union had negotiated with the school board to get.
But this thread seems to be spinning off into “are unions justified” – I think the OP’s original question has been answered.
**Cervaise ** – the detail and clarity of your post #52 is much appreciated. I feel a little smarter today 
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
…The significant thing to know in all of this: Most of the time, the management types organizing the rewrites like to have the writer at their beck and call, easily accessible to be on site, face to face, for notes meetings. Only the most successful writers, or specialized, get to live somewhere other than Los Angeles and its environs. The suggestion in one of your earlier posts (which you then withdrew, but bear with me for the benefit of other readers) that all of this could be conducted remotely via electronic communications is not reflective of the reality of the industry. These start-up scab writers would have to be in L.A., full stop…
[/QUOTE]
Warning: My knowledge of TV writing comes from commentaries & extras on DVD sets–mostly of Joss Whedon shows! It appears that most shows have a “stable” of writers. They meet with the show runner to determine the arc of each season. Then “pitch” stories. Specific writers are selected for each script–often due to their strong points. That is, Writer X is good at comedy, so he gets assigned to a mostly funny episode.
Then the scripts are submitted, critiqued & rewritten. Sometimes several times. Even as an episode is shot, changes may be necessary. This is a group process. Yes, it appears that the genius writer who e-mails the perfect script is nonexistent. (And “getting along with people” is a necessary skill.)
As a Whedon fan, I definitely understand the need to get paid more for DVD’s & other “alternate” media. Just because the Network Suits kill a show–it just might do quite well, eventually.
[QUOTE=RealityChuck]
Lack of talent.
Good writers are hard to find, and you can’t shake a tree and find people with the skills necessary. In addition to all the reasons Exapno mentions, the task of finding people who can write decent scripts is so daunting that there’s little point in trying.
[/QUOTE]
I would think it’d be more of an issue of difficulty of finding talent than any actual lack of talent. Whatever your abilities, the barriers to entry in the field are formidable, as many others have pointed out.
(I disagree, however, that talent is necessary to make it into that tiny slice that gets all the work. There is a lot of journeyman writing on the air. Or maybe that is the talent, and I’m confusing genius with talent.)
[QUOTE=fatgail]
I’m sure you’ll come back and say “sweetie, that means your bad”*, but I hope you’ll forgive me for saying, blow me.
[/QUOTE]
It does, you know. I used to get rejection slips that read better than any of my acceptances ever did. But they were still rejection slips. You’re letting your anger at rejection get in the way of your thinking. That’s fatal for a writer.
Have you ever read Miss Snark, the Literary Agent? She’s not posting new material, but her archives are well worth browsing through. She’s great for translating what editors and agents mean when they tell you no in not so many words.
OTOH, you are still young. I was 40 before I truly “got” it in fiction. Nonfiction I got 20 years earlier but fiction took an excruciatingly long time.
*Especially if you use “your bad.” That’s probably just a careless typo and I’ve done the same here on the Dope. But if you do the same in what you send you’ll be bounced faster than an NBA dribble.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
Again, this is a conclusion that is not implied by the above comments. As a totality, the WGA would be difficult to replace and represents on the average the best experienced American screenwriters. That doesn’t imply that every single WGA member individually is better than every single non-WGA writer in the world.
[/QUOTE]
But isn’t this true for most big unions with skilled workers? I’m not disagreeing with you per se, but I would imagine that replacing all the workers in most unions with skilled workers would be difficult. I mean if nurses, painters, or jail guards went on strike en masse, I doubt you could replace them overnight.
What I think some people are objecting to is the implication that the writing itself requires an incredibly unique ability rather than a mix of ability, specialized knowledge, and practice. Yes, it would be almost impossible to replace all the writers, or to find someone who is as good as the best ones out there, but I don’t think the act of screen writing, in and of itself, is far difficult than being a nurse.
Imagine if a big hospital lost all their RNs and could not hire any other RNs out there, how many people could realistically step in to do the job? Sure, plenty of people are knowledgeable, but they lack the understanding of the job, and the ability to perform at that pace, on that level. It’s not only a reflection of the skills involved, but also the fact that few people invest the time, or have the dedication to perform on that level without making it their career.
But the American Idol example someone gave is a good one, although for the opposite reasons stated. Every year, thousands of people audition. But the pool of applicants does not represent all the good singers out there. There are plenty of decent singers doing other things. This is especially true in the entertainment field where success is not guaranteed, and fewer people want to deal with the stress of rejection.
My brother was a friend of a AI finalist (she eventually got kicked off) who was arguably the most talented person on her season. She failed to win for reasons that have nothing to do with her talent. If all the professional singers went on strike, she could step in in a minute and do the job in many circumstances.
The whole idea of AI is that there are dozens of people out there that have professional level talent, but lack the means to be heard or have their gifts recognized. Ironically, many of the best selling artists in the last few years have been AI finalists. These people went from being unknown to dominating the field in many regards. I’m sure the same would apply to writing. Hell, the lady who wrote Juno used to be a stripper.
I don’t say all that to say that being a professional writer is easy, but neither are plenty of everyday jobs that people often take for granted. I just think it’s important to keep all of that in perspective. With the sheer number of writers of all stripes out there, I’m sure many could churn out a scripts if given some training and guidance.
[QUOTE=brickbacon]
I don’t say all that to say that being a professional writer is easy, but neither are plenty of everyday jobs that people often take for granted. I just think it’s important to keep all of that in perspective. With the sheer number of writers of all stripes out there, I’m sure many could churn out a scripts if given some training and guidance.
[/QUOTE]
This is, however, an industry of gatekeepers. What you can do is much less important than which hoops you’ve jumped through. Especially important, as pointed out upthread, is being able, willing, and physically available to carry out the changes demanded by the producers. At the end of the day, it’s their show - writers are glorified hired help.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
When I encountered this situation in the 80s, I was told that I had two choices: join the teacher’s union and have dues automatically deducted from my paycheck, or don’t join the union and have the exact same amount of money deducted from my paycheck. You can use whatever weaselly phrasing you want, but I was basically forced to join the union.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not really weaselly, though. Actually, since the Beck decision in1988 (you must have been before that), “agency fees” can only be collected for the documented costs of collective bargaining, which guarantees that you’d be paying a lower rate. By paying full dues and being recognized as a member, though, you’re subject to union discipline. By not being a member, you can cross the picket line without legal repercussions should you happen not to believe in that strike. You’re also entitled to resign from the union at any time – such as during a strike – and go back to your job, again, without repercussion. (Of course in a right-to-work state, you don’t even have to pay the agency fees.)
[QUOTE=fatgail]
Well, since i fancy myself a writer, and the WGA members in here are telling me I’m basically a pile of shit because i’m not in their union
[/quote]
From my perspective, this inference is not warranted.
:dubious:
This inference is also not warranted.
[QUOTE=brickbacon]
But isn’t this true for most big unions with skilled workers?
[/quote]
Yes, of course. The main difference between this labour dispute and previous ones seems to be that it’s pretty much apparent that the WGA’s position is reasonable and that the producers’ position isn’t and also that the WGA has broader support in society than has usually been the case in labour disputes.
I don’t think that this has been implied.
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
It does, you know. I used to get rejection slips that read better than any of my acceptances ever did. But they were still rejection slips. You’re letting your anger at rejection get in the way of your thinking. That’s fatal for a writer.
.
[/QUOTE]
Oh wait, I thought I wasn’t a writer. I thought I was a loser wannabe. Just you and Reality Chuck are writers. The rest of us are sitting at home wanking it.
It’s like filling spaces on the bingo card baby. Yes, I know, every compliment I’ve ever gotten on my writing is actually translated to “You’re No Exapno Mapcase”, and I’m just a jaded ol’ housewife trying to break into your very manly peni…business.
Thanks for missing every crucial point in my post to point out a typo. The day I start blowing my head off for misspelling a word on the Dope is the day I check myself in. But really, thanks for letting me know that typos aren’t really the way to go in formal proposals.
[QUOTE=fatgail]
I’m sure you’ll come back and say “sweetie, that means your bad”, but I hope you’ll forgive me for saying, blow me.
I know that you’re desperate to make yourself feel like you’re the best thing since Cinnabon, and I’m sure you are li’l guy, but ‘laughing at’ and cutting down others, the little people who haven’t had the right timing or the right agent or the right format doesn’t speak well to your character.
[/QUOTE]
Moderator Warning
fatgail, telling another poster to “blow me” in GQ is not permitted. Even if you feel offended by someone else’s remarks, you need to keep it civil, or else take your dispute to the Pit.
Some of your other posts, including your most recent one, indicate you are taking this discussion far too personally. I would advise you to either tone down your responses in general, or if you cannot, refrain from posting further in this thread.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Sorry about that. I’ll bow out.
[QUOTE=brickbacon]
What I think some people are objecting to is the implication that the writing itself requires an incredibly unique ability rather than a mix of ability, specialized knowledge, and practice. Yes, it would be almost impossible to replace all the writers, or to find someone who is as good as the best ones out there, but I don’t think the act of screen writing, in and of itself, is far difficult than being a nurse.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, writing is both talent and craft. Most fields are. Remember the football strike back in, when, 1987 maybe? Some peole might argue that there are thousands of big guys who have played football and should be able to step in and play some more. Yet the actual talent and performance in the replacement player games were laughable. Football has craft to it and years must be devoted to play at the highest levels.
I don’t think anyone who is a writer is saying that writing requires unique ability. I think that we are saying, explicitly, is that even given the ability people outside the industry don’t have the craft.
It’s the people who aren’t writers and who don’t know anything about the field who are arguing that people with the ability are legion and they don’t see why the producers couldn’t just hire them.
All that American Idol proves is that you can take people with ability, give them the most massive publicity in the world, provide them with every advantage in the recording studio, parade them around the country in concert tours, and they still won’t sell that many records because they don’t have any craft. It’s the continued failure of most of the American Idol names, not the few successes, that are meaningful.
Define “craft.”
[QUOTE=fatgail]
Actually, I’m 35 and if you don’t mind me saying, I don’t think I’m bad, nor do the agencies who have read my stuff and noted that it’s good writing, but the market isn’t right for it right now, or they have too much on their plate, or would you be willing to change this or this or this…
[/QUOTE]
Seems to me that if you’re not the sort of writer who’s ever willing to change this or this or this then you’re probably not the sort of writer who’s tuned to screenwriting for television. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, per se.
And yet, maybe you do have what it takes to do screenwriting. It’s not like you need special genes for it or anything. But, as it strikes me, all the professional screenwriters are saying is “If you don’t have serious experience doing screenwriting, then, well, you don’t have serious experience doing screenwriting. You may be able, with the same amount of practice and study and work that existing screenwriters undertook, to eventually be just as good at it as any of the current pros, but you can’t reasonably expect to be able to just jump right in and hammer out decent quality scabwork with your first efforts, just like that.”
Is the current membership of the WGA irreplaceable in the sense that no one else could ever learn to do what they do? Obviously not; eventually, they’ll all be dead, and new people will be taking on their jobs. But the important sense in which they are difficult to replace is that it very much would take time for inexperienced amateurs to get to a stage where they can be relied on to match the efforts of the old hands. At least, that’s how it seems to me.
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug]
Define “craft.”
[/QUOTE]
See Indistinguishable’s post.
[QUOTE=brickbacon]
But the American Idol example someone gave is a good one, although for the opposite reasons stated. Every year, thousands of people audition. But the pool of applicants does not represent all the good singers out there. There are plenty of decent singers doing other things. This is especially true in the entertainment field where success is not guaranteed, and fewer people want to deal with the stress of rejection.
[/QUOTE]
American Idol is a near-perfect metaphor for television screenwriters.
I prefer singers with actual soul to American Idol pandering pop singers.
I prefer face to face roleplaying games to grinding MMORPGS.
I prefer auteurs to workaday television hacks.