Why political forgiveness and cooperation won't be coming any time soon

[Ann_Hedonia]

It is kind of frightening that so many people have been taken in by the delusion, that they believe the lies.

It’s dangerous, frankly — but I just don’t think there’s any way to bring them back. This is why I’m advocating the “cut them off from polite society” approach ( as well as cutting them off from each other as much as possible)…it’s a form of social distancing, a way to stop the spread. Keep the delusion contained so it doesn’t spread to others,

I remembered something this morning I haven’t thought of in a long time. I’m surprised I haven’t, because it was an incredibly significant moment in my life, as well as being somewhat relevant to today’s social situation.

I was having problems with my young adult foster son, who was devouring “fulfill your potential by unleashing the the power of the universe” crap online and slipping into schizoid thought patterns. When things didn’t work out for him, my “negativity” was the problem. It got increasingly worse.

I went to a therapist. After I told him the story, he said

“You have to get out of there. You are in an incredibly dangerous situation”

I said - “ I don’t think you understand. He’s not trying to hurt me, he thinks I’m trying to hurt him”

He said “That is why he’s dangerous. Do you have a friend you can stay with?” Then we spent the rest of the session making a long term plan.

To this day, my former foster son thinks I was out to hurt him, and the actions I took to extricate myself, leading to me taking him to court and evicting him, made that feeling worse. This is someone I loved, and that pain is still with me.

It took me a long time to do what I had to do, I spent years trying to work through this stuff with him while it just got worse.

The point is I didn’t get to my “cut them off” stance lightly. I have plenty of real world experience with psychological abuse borne of delusion. I was able to recognize it for what it was when I saw it and I know there’s only one answer. It’s a highly imperfect answer, but it’s all we’ve got.

[k9bfriender]

@Ann_Hedonia

The point is I didn’t get to my “cut them off” stance lightly. I have plenty of real world experience with psychological abuse borne of delusion. I was able to recognize it for what it was when I saw it and I know there’s only one answer. It’s a highly imperfect answer, but it’s all we’ve got.

So, in your towel folding metaphor, it is as if they are not only hurting you because you folded the towels wrong, but because they believe that you are folding the towels wrong in a deliberate effort to hurt them.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Irishman

They believe they are the defenders of democracy.

…it doesn’t matter what they believe.

Its their actions that matter.

And storming the capitol yelling you want to kill the Vice President and looking for ballot boxes so you can destroy them is about as anti-democracy as you can get. Trump is their messiah. They “believe” the lie because it gives them an excuse.

@Irishman

This is unnecessary. Clearly Max_S means Democrats, not you specifically. I mean, unless you think he thinks you are a congressman.

It was necessary. It needed to be stated that the stakes for me aren’t the same as for other people in this thread.

[Ann_Hedonia]

@k9bfriender

@Ann_Hedonia

The point is I didn’t get to my “cut them off” stance lightly. I have plenty of real world experience with psychological abuse borne of delusion. I was able to recognize it for what it was when I saw it and I know there’s only one answer. It’s a highly imperfect answer, but it’s all we’ve got.

So, in your towel folding metaphor, it is as if they are not only hurting you because you folded the towels wrong, but because they believe that you are folding the towels wrong in a deliberate effort to hurt them.

It’s never really about the towels. Never.

[Irishman]

@Max_S

drafting legislation in secret and pushing them through without debate or negotiations

The Republicans already accuse the Democrats of this, of pushing through legislation without negotiation. That was a major claim against Obamacare, even though it was blatantly untrue. Obama hung up legislation for a long time to try to find a way to get some Repubs on board.

Similarly, they accuse Obama of doing an end run around Congress using Executive Orders, ignoring he waited months for them to take up any immigration reform. And none of his Executive Orders precluded Congress from writing legislation.

@Max_S

“Fight like hell” is not a tangible solution. You’re tossing around this phrase like it’s some sort of magic bullet that will get Republicans out of power, but it doesn’t actually mean anything. “Fight like hell” is just a nonspecific phrase,

Yes. Beat them with a stick? Run candidates in Republican strongholds where you expect to lose? Grassroots campaign to change expectations? March in the streets to oppose every effort at voter disenfranchisement? Send death threats to their homes? That’s exactly the ambiguity Trump used for his defense.

[Irishman]

@Mijin

So, as I have said in other threads, yes Democrats should give Republicans a path back to reality. They should welcome genuine attempts at policy discussion.
But they should expect Republicans to continue to act like monsters for the foreseeable future and not give an inch to them.
Do not advance them any favors expecting it to be paid back later, they won’t be. And don’t tolerate any bullshit CT, they must be nipped in the bud immediately.

This!

@Ann_Hedonia

And I was halfway through typing this when I realized I was describing 2020 Republicans.

Snerk. I was reading along and thinking you were listing Trump’s actions. You left out “You will take children from their parents and deliberately not track them as a deterrent to illegal immigration, because they are illegal, so they deserve harsh treatment.” Or maybe because they are brown.

@Ann_Hedonia

I was starting to think that I might be being overly harsh by pointing at footage of Confederate flag bearing insurgents mobs beating cops with clubs and saying this is the Republican Party,

Why? It’s the fucking truth. Oh, I know, a lot of Republicans are upset by the violence, but many of them still believe the lies that inspired it, and still support the officials (I can’t call them leaders) that spout the lies and obstruct justice. And I really have to wonder about how many of those “protestors” going to trial will get off because a jury member believes the election was rigged and won’t convict a “patriot”.

@Max_S

I strongly doubt Democrats can pin legislative setbacks on Republicans (even when it is the Republicans’ fault) when they boast control of both houses and the Presidency. The political apathy in this countr

Yes, they have to get things done, too. Which is exactly why they can’t sit around trying to negotiate with Republicans who aren’t acting in good faith. The Hawleys and Cruzes and Greenes and McConnells are poison and must be shut out.

Someone posted Romney’s tax credit plan, and it remarkably is better overall than Biden’s, even if there are a few holes it opens up. One reason it’s better is that it pays for itself, and is not a temporary covid deal. Dems should consider glomming on to it, tweaking it to fix the holes, and then proudly displaying and loudly proclaiming their bipartisanship. “See, we are open to Republican ideas when they are good for the country.”

Or maybe two step it by pushing through Biden’s now for this year and begin a longer process on Romney’s to replace it next year. Then Biden gets an early win, and the Dems show “unity”.

@k9bfriender

It’s easy to say that they believed it was stolen, but why is that? Not because of any evidence, not because of any sort of actual factual basis, but simply because they couldn’t believe that they lost.

If someone is going to mount an insurrection solely on the basis that they didn’t believe that they lost, then that is not democracy, and they are not defending it, they have abandoned it.

I agree, and I’m certainly not trying to defend the actions of the insurrectionists. I’m pointing out their motivations within their own heads. If you don’t acknowledge that, you are missing how Trump could motivate that many people to try to override democracy. It’s all lies, but they are lying to themselves as well.

@Ann_Hedonia

It’s dangerous, frankly — but I just don’t think there’s any way to bring them back. This is why I’m advocating the “cut them off from polite society” approach

I’ve got relatives who are ardent Trump supporters - still. I have gone so far as to sign up for Facebook so I can engage them better. At least until I get blocked. I’ve made the commitment to make the efforts I can to address the people I know. I think any path to normal will require all of us to do our part directly addressing or own friends and family. I know it is easier to avoid confrontation to try to prevent hard feelings, but if we just try to go along to get along, we aren’t doing our part to break the lies. So I’m making the effort.

[Irishman]

@Irishman

Yes. Beat them with a stick? Run candidates in Republican strongholds where you expect to lose? Grassroots campaign to change expectations? March in the streets to oppose every effort at voter disenfranchisement? Send death threats to their homes? That’s exactly the ambiguity Trump used for his defense.

Already answered. Thanks.