Why prayer is illogical and useless

[Valteron]

@newcrasher

Then why do you continue to play it?

Again I come back to my oft ignored posit that speaking against prayer is just as wasteful as you say prayer itself is.

So how does that make you different from the people I will pray with in about an hour at church?

You wonder if I am wasting my time? Not necessarily. There may be one person, just one, out there, in whom the seed of healthy skepticism is planted. And if I can help that one person, perhaps a young person, reject the unproven superstition that is religion, I will have made a positive contribution to humanity.

Newcrasher, I want you to imagine that you are standing there with a crowd, 600 years ago, watching them burn a witch. The poor old woman’s only crime is that she owns property that the local officials want to get their hands on, plus she is a scold that the rest of the community dislike.

She has been tortured until she confesses. Her fingers are mangled by the torture instruments. As she dies in the flames, the person next to you says, “Well, she confessed to everything.”

And you, at the risk of being considered a witch yourself, whisper to that person, “Gee, I wonder what you or I would confess to if the torture were bad enough.” And for a few seconds, you see in the firelight, as the old lady’s screams rend the sky, that the person you just spoke to is thinking and slightly troubled by what you have just said.

Surely, if the burning of witches came to an end, it was because of all the tiny seeds of doubt that were planted by rational people.

Five hundred years ago, it was a capital offence to be an atheist. Today, in countries like Canada, France and the Czech Republic, atheists form a significant proportion of the population.

Even though it will take many centuries to happen, the ugly, vicious bitch of religion is in fact starting to die, and she knows it. Why do you think the religious right and Islamic fundamentalism are on a rampage? Because religion feels as never before that its monstrous hold on the mind of humanity is weakening, if ever so slightly.

Religion will someday die out completely, and humanity will enter a new age of rational freedom from superstition. But that will not happen for centuries, I am convinced. And, like the person standing at the witch burning in my example, all I can do is plant the seed out rational doubt and hope that it sprouts.

Hope your prayer meeting went well, newcrasher. I do not pray for you, but I wish you happiness and love and serenity.

[Oakminster]

@Valteron

You wonder if I am wasting my time? Not necessarily. There may be one person, just one, out there, in whom the seed of healthy skepticism is planted. And if I can help that one person, perhaps a young person, reject the unproven superstition that is religion, I will have made a positive contribution to humanity.

More fuzzy logic. You completely ignore the possibility that you are wrong, and the unproven superstition is correct. If so, you will have lured an innocent into Hell. That would not qualify as a positive contribution.

[newcrasher]

@Valteron

You wonder if I am wasting my time? Not necessarily. There may be one person, just one, out there, in whom the seed of healthy skepticism is planted. And if I can help that one person, perhaps a young person, reject the unproven superstition that is religion, I will have made a positive contribution to humanity.

Newcrasher, I want you to imagine that you are standing there with a crowd, 600 years ago, watching them burn a witch. The poor old woman’s only crime is that she owns property that the local officials want to get their hands on, plus she is a scold that the rest of the community dislike.

She has been tortured until she confesses. Her fingers are mangled by the torture instruments. As she dies in the flames, the person next to you says, “Well, she confessed to everything.”

And you, at the risk of being considered a witch yourself, whisper to that person, “Gee, I wonder what you or I would confess to if the torture were bad enough.” And for a few seconds, you see in the firelight, as the old lady’s screams rend the sky, that the person you just spoke to is thinking and slightly troubled by what you have just said.

Surely, if the burning of witches came to an end, it was because of all the tiny seeds of doubt that were planted by rational people.

Five hundred years ago, it was a capital offence to be an atheist. Today, in countries like Canada, France and the Czech Republic, atheists form a significant proportion of the population.

Even though it will take many centuries to happen, the ugly, vicious bitch of religion is in fact starting to die, and she knows it. Why do you think the religious right and Islamic fundamentalism are on a rampage? Because religion feels as never before that its monstrous hold on the mind of humanity is weakening, if ever so slightly.

Religion will someday die out completely, and humanity will enter a new age of rational freedom from superstition. But that will not happen for centuries, I am convinced. And, like the person standing at the witch burning in my example, all I can do is plant the seed out rational doubt and hope that it sprouts.

Hope your prayer meeting went well, newcrasher. I do not pray for you, but I wish you happiness and love and serenity.

To which I reply…WTF?

Christians have been victims, and more unfortunately, victimizers over the centuries.

You are doing what I find so annoying with my fellow Christians. You are firmly entrenched in your view and you are seeking affirmation of your view through anecdotes and parsing scripture. You aren’t seeking the truth for its sake, you are seeking to further enttrench yourself in what you already believe.

I believe there is a universal truth that bears seeking. Christian’s are at their most vile and dangerous when they proclaim to have a corner on the search. But non-Christians can be just as hard-headed and more importantly hard-hearted in their unwavering quest to firm up what they already believe.

Don’t be that guy. Don’t become the new fundamentalist.

The fact of the matter is that you don’t know if prayer works or not. Neither do I. Why would I want to convince you of something that I can’t be sure of myself? Your prayer life is something for you to work out, as is mine. I respect you and your decision to not pray. I would respect you more if you cared less about the prayer life of others.

Valteron - You wonder if I am wasting my time? Not necessarily. There may be one person, just one, out there, in whom the seed of healthy skepticism is planted. And if I can help that one person, perhaps a young person, reject the unproven superstition that is religion, I will have made a positive contribution to humanity.

bolding mine

Do you know that the argument you make there is the same many Xtian fundies use? They are passionate in their beliefs, and they feel drawn to “do something”. So often they take the easy route; a letter writing campaign to complain that they saw Janet Jackson’s boob, having NBC pull the latest “offensive show”, arming themselves for the “War Against Christmas”…etc. etc. ad nauseum. They are aware that their views are marginal and offensive, but if they can reach just one person for Christ, it is worth it…

Fuck that noise. I am made in the image of God. So are you. I am made to impact the world with love, not partake in intellectual excercises that *may * impact one person…so my prayer life is backed up with doing what Jesus asked of us…feed the hungry, visit those in prison, love the least of these.

And the thing that really saddens me is how those of us who profess to love Jesus have failed you in showing love. Even if you can’t bring yourself to believe in Jesus, it is OUR failure that you cannot follow that with, “But those Christians are groovy, loving folks!”

Forget doctrine. If you want, forget prayer. But get out there and love someone…

p.s.

I do not pray for you, but I wish you happiness and love and serenity.

Is wishing more or less effective than prayer?

[newcrasher]

@Valteron

Even though it will take many centuries to happen, the ugly, vicious bitch of religion is in fact starting to die, and she knows it.

I was going to refute this, but instead I will ask you for a cite to prove it.

You may find anecdotal evidence that some denominations in the USA are struggling, but globally I think Christianity and Islam are both growing.

[Clothahump]

Why prayer is illogical and useless

A better question is why anyone would think prayer is logical and useful.

[newcrasher]

@Clothahump

A better question is why anyone would think prayer is logical and useful.

Good point!

[tomndebb]

Newcrasher, I want you to imagine that you are standing there with a crowd, 600 years ago, watching them burn a witch.

Anachronism alert!
If you want to burn witches, you can only go back about 550 years, (and probably more like 500). Prior to the fifteenth century, the (as yet undivided by Reformation) church actually condemned, not witchcraft, but the belief that witches existed.

(Burning was also a bit rare, hanging being the more common method of execution. Burning was reserved for heretics.)

@Valteron

Surely, if the burning of witches came to an end, it was because of all the tiny seeds of doubt that were planted by rational people.

This is an astute observation. Witch trials began popping up in regions where religion had been shattered by dissent and came to an end when more stable churchmen rationally re-asserted the idea that there was no such thing as a real witch.

@Valteron

Five hundred years ago, it was a capital offence to be an atheist.

Citation? Any actual law that you can point to criminalizing a lack of belief in God? Any actual persons convicted of the crime you claim existed? (Certainly, the churches stupidly punished people for being heretics, but that was nearly always a condemnation of a different Christian belief, not a failure to believe, at all.)

[Zoe]

Valteron: Later on I shortened this to “prayer” because any reasonable person who is not a nit-picker would realize in the context of this thread that this is what we are talking about.

I have a suggestion. Keep in mind when you are talking about scientific evidence, it is important to be very exact and nit-picky. That’s what science is about.

<snip>

I said that the study had shown prayer to be “useless”. I suppose I should have said “the type of intercessory prayer tested in the study was found by the study to be useless.!”

You could leave out the words “by the study,” but essentially that is exactly what you should have said in order for your statement to be accurate.

Sheesh!

Now I will think that you talk with your hands!