This thread is making me think of the time a black buddy of mine walked up to the leader of a highly protested KKK rally and attempted to join. “No, we’re cool, I hate myself too. pantomimes washing motions I scrub myself with brillo in the shower every morning, but it just don’t come off. But hey, I’m tryin’, and at least I ain’t Catholic. Whaddayah say?”
He kept it up for almost an hour. The pinnacle was when he almost walked away, and then told the most bizarre racist joke I’ve yet heard:
“What do you call thirty black guys standing in a barn? pause An antique farm equipment collection!”
In retrospect, best possible last day in town before moving cross-country for him.
My mom’s cousin died by falling off a cliff. Actually, he died when he had a heart attack, then pitched backwards off a three-hundred foot cliff. He was 18 at the time, with an undiagnosed heart defect, and was at Yosemite on his senior class trip, just a few months before he would have graduated from high school.
Tragic? Absolutely. Also very funny, in it’s own macabre way. And it’s never interfered with our family’s ability to enjoy Road Runner cartoons.
Well, there isn’t a whole lot more to the story then what I posted. I’d say that it does ridicule the Holocaust, in that Chapman was suggesting that a good way to get into the camp was to be a victim of the camp, which minimizes the nature of the atrocity. Also, it’s taking a shot at the German people, by suggesting that they’re still looking to indiscriminatly slaughter Jews.
Along those same lines, I recall a Mad Magazine parody of Hogan’s Heros that ended with a full-page splash panel of the “sequel” to the show: set not in a POW camp, but a concentration camp. On one level, the gag was an argument that the premise of the actual show was inappropriate, but on the surface, it was a bunch of gags about starving Jews waiting to be gassed to death. Now, if one wants to argue (as you have been) that making jokes about the holocaust, or lynching, or any of the other thousands of instances of hideous racial/religious violence perpetrated by mankind throughout history, makes one “morally bankrupt,” then we are forced to include Monty Python and Mad Magazine amongst the damned. Otherwise, we might have to consider that context does, in fact, make a difference with this sort of humor.
Is there some rule saying that in order to disagree with you, I need to make another contribution first? Or are you just using that as an excuse to not answer?
Regarding having more knowledge about the story: it’s not necessary. Treat it as a hypothetical, assuming that’s the entire story. Is it reprehensible? No. Is he making a non-reprehensible joke about the Holocaust? Yes.
Now put yourself in the shoes of someone (e.g. me) who might have made the exact same joke (not that I’m as funny or quick as Graham Chapman), but who finds the jokes in the OP highly offensive. You’ve just called me “seriously fucked up” for no good reason. Do you understand why I might object? You do yourself a disservice by vehemently objecting to too much. We’re on the same page when you want to denounce jokes which actually promote racism, but when you cross the line and declare that certain things are just plain off limits for jokes, no questions asked, you lose all credibility.
And I appreciate you coming back to offer clarfication.
I didn’t see the “Mad Magazine” parody that you mention, but I certainly remember “Hogan’s Heros.” I’d have to see the parody so that I could get a fuller sense of what you’re saying, but if by “context” you mean, oh, I don’t know, teaching moment, then I thinkk I get your point. As **Hippy Hollow ** said somewhere upthread (and I agree), there are very few people who can successfully pull this kind of humor off.
Having said that, I have a really difficult time imagining any situation where I’d think that jokes about lynching (especially given what I know about lynching–freaky, freaky shit) and the Holocaust (freaky shit in its own right), would be funny. Not to minimize in any way the circumstances of your mother’s cousin’s death, but these were not equivalent to falling off of a cliff–they were organized, protracted campaigns of terror and death against the unjustly despised, the defenseless, and the innocent that had the implicit (and in the case of the Holocaust, the explicit) blessing of the state.
Also, there still walk among us people who were alive during those campaigns of terror, and as long as they’re alive, it’s extremely unlikely that I’ll be able to consider this kind of humor with anything approaching equanimity. And I’m frustrated that several people here, members of a board devoted to fighting ignorance, are able to do that. There just seems to be a nonchalance to too many of the responses here, and that saddens me. That’s what I get, I suppose, for expecting just a little bit more in the way of what I consider to be decency from the denizens of the Dope than I do from the rest of the world.
This is my take as well, and I’ve told every offensive joke there is, a couple today probably. What was the point of repeating them in the OP- why not just summarize that they told you some anti black jokes and leave it at that, unless you really wanted to just tell the jokes and this was the only way to do so without being blatantly racist?
Its like when Howard Stern would have stump the jokeman, knowing full well that 99% of the callers would have a racist joke, and that way they could air them without telling them. Pretty lame, and I can’t believe only two people out of 100 thought so.
I think you’re halfway to my point. As you say, some people can use offensive themes or ideas to create a “teaching moment” that has redeeming value. Therefore, in the context of creating that moment, one can see that invoking racist concepts does not necessarily make the invoker a racist, or otherwise morally defective. My point was that this is not the only context in which racist jokes are not an automatic sign of moral decrepitude.
You strike me as a very sensitive person, which I think is a wonderful thing. But not everyone can live with that level of empathy all day. I know that I couldn’t. Some things are so awful, I need to create some emotional distance between it and myself. The Holocaust is like that. The history of racial violence in America is like that. When I think about them, I get angry - furious, even, not just at the inhumanity of it, but of the sheer stupidity of it all. But if I felt that every time I thought of these subjects, it would literally kill me. Humor gives me a handle on these subjects so that I can examine them without giving myself a stroke. I don’t think that makes me indecent, far less ignorant. In point of fact, I think that makes me relatively normal.
What? No. No teaching moments. Just humor for no good reason. Humor because it strikes your funny bone and makes you laugh.
When my husband had me cracking up cracking jokes about my baby’s eyeball operation, while she was still being operated on, I knew that I got it. No one loves her more than we do, but we could laugh. A sense of humor is what we as a family share. We know we love each other. We know that a black man can feed a family of 4. We know that the Holocaust was atrocious and that 6 millions Jewish souls cannot fit into an ashtray. But that is not the point.
People that get uptight about these jokes actually worry me a bit…is there some kind of notion sparking deep in the recesses of their minds that maybe a black man can’t really feed a family of four, and damnit, that is nothing to laugh at?
No, no, you misunderstand me! I was pointing out the whole “teaching moment” thing as an example that there are contexts in which offensive humor can be acceptable, but I wasn’t putting it forward as the only context in which it was acceptable. Li’l Pluck was having trouble understanding that people could find this sort of humor funny without in some way supporting their plain text sentiments. The “teaching moments” thing was an example where he agreed that plainly wasn’t the case, and I used it in hopes that he could reason backwards to other contexts in which a person could use this kind of humor without endorsing the plain text sentiments, without an additional attempt at packaging any sort of lesson in with the joke.
Personally I see it as a sign of moral progress rather than a sign of moral bankrupcy. Now I’m not saying you’re bankrupt for NOT liking them i’m jsut saying it’s a different way of showing morality.
Think of it this way, when they joke about it, it’s not happening and they know it’s most likely not going to happen on a grand scale in any time anywhere near them. They’re distancing themselves from the events. Noone’s saying “hey let’s laugh at the situation Li’l Pluck’s gradparents were in!” They’re saying “hey isn’t it great this stuff is so far behind us we can mock those idiots that actually thought this crap!” It’s a celebration it’s over and an exploitation of the absurdity of it. Some of the joke is in that, in hindsight, racism/sexism/genocide was (and is to some) an incredibly stupid notion. By joking they’re distancing themselves from racism.
Personally I think the day these jokes can be told openly in a public place without offense is the day we’ve left racism behind because, after all, it’s just a joke about an absurd notion, why take offense?
And I rarely if ever tell the jokes, in fact the last time I brought up a black joke it was with one of my best friends (who’s black) who was outing with his own black jokes (and he started it). Can’t use the “n” word though… the aforementioned friend was like “just say it!” But ti always comes out as “nimphhityr” or “njkr” really quietly.
Obligatory Avenue Q song (Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist):
I used one very similar once hanging out with some friends and I managed to pull it off light hearted enough to get them to stop with the bad jokes without being pissed at me. I think it is the best method.
For example, in the Seinfeld episode The Diplomat’s Club, George Costanza (a character that as far as I know hasn’t displayed racist tendencies) remarks to his african-american boss, “Has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like Sugar Ray Leonard?”. To which his boss replies, “I’m sure you think we all do.”. It’s clear to me that George meant it as either a compliment or just an off-hand remark, but his boss interprets the comment as “Costanza thinks black people all look alike; he’s a racist.”. Telling a white person that they remind you of Bruce Willis or Fiona Apple or any other white celebrity doesn’t have this pitfall, so it’s reasonable to say that it’s an innocuous comment that was misinterpreted. Now George is worried that he’ll get fired or passed over for a promotion because of this misunderstanding. In typical sitcom fashion, he tries and fails to convince his boss that he isn’t racist; in fact, he just makes things worse. By the end of the episode, the boss doesn’t want anything to do with George, and then right on cue, it’s revealed that an african-american man mistook the boss for Sugar Ray Leonard; George is vindicated a moment too late for it to matter.
It may be a sitcom, but the initial misunderstanding is plausible.
You misunderstand. Perhaps fear is too strong a word; “worry” or “concern” may be more appropriate.
The main thrust of the jokes is “Surprise! I’m a racist!”, which is a pretty big non sequitur after you’ve known someone for years and they’ve never displayed a single racist impulse. Other tasteless jokes work along the same lines; “Surprise! I’m an abusive husband!” or “Surprise! I’m a pedophile!” or somesuch. Not just any non sequitur has the same effect. A set of jokes that says “Surprise! I’m a pirate!” doesn’t have the same oomph because nobody is worried about being accused of being a pirate. Tasteless jokes have an underlying component that says, “I’m worried about being mistaken for a racist/pedophile/wife beater/etc.”, and they express this by facetiously “outing” the joke teller as the monster in question. They also have the trust component of “We know each other well enough that you won’t conclude that I’m actually a racist looking for an excuse to tell these jokes.”; it seems pretty twisted, but it can deepen friendships. As I said, the OP’s sister, having lost her mother, may have felt the need for assurance of the depth of her bonds with her friends.
Jokes often employ hyperbole and absurdity, and in this case, it can lead to a bout of “I’m so racist” one-upmanship. Looking at the jokes quoted in the OP:
“I’m so racist, I think that black men are so lazy that they’d starve to death before doing an honest day’s work.”
“I’m so racist, I’m in favor of lynching.”
“I’m so racist, I actually own a slave!”
“I’m so racist, I’m in favor of the/another Holocaust!”
“I’m so racist, I play with (desecrate) the remains of the jews that died in the Holocaust!”
The notion that these attitudes are common among twentysomethings in this day and age is comically absurd.
Good example, but I think you misconstrue George’s boss’ comment. In my view, he’s basically calling out George for being a clueless White guy. He’s not labeling him as a racist. That is way too strong for something Black people encounter every day. I’ve been told that I look like so many random Black guys that it makes me laugh more than anything else. Ben Stein actually thought I looked like Darius Rucker from Hootie and the Blowfish… personally I don’t see it.
More importantly, George’s boss doesn’t avoid or ostracize him. It’s business as usual. A more apt analogy is learning that a good friend likes a really shitty band, or doesn’t recycle. Something you might lose a little respect over, but not something that someone would label you as racist. Now if you have a number of other behaviors that are suspect, that might enhance the case for potentially being a racist. Most rational Black people that interact with White people on a regular basis have had this happen before…
…but what you don’t seem to realize is that this can happen to Black people too. When I was in grad school, I was a TA for class and I once called an Asian female student the wrong name. Not only was it the wrong name, it was the name of another Asian female student. I felt like an ass and apologized to the student - she said it was fine, but I was mortified: “She thinks I think they all look alike!” I wanted to tell her how my best friends growing up were half-Chinese, that I’ve traveled to Asia, that I’ve read Ron Takaki’s books, and so on. But that would sound even more pandering. I’ve examined this from many levels: maybe I subconsciously thought she looked like the other student, or I didn’t notice phenotypical traits in Asian people as well as I did in other racial groups.
What I realized is two things: one, perhaps I am less skillful at quickly remembering the names of Asian people compared to Black people. I don’t think it’s true, but it’s not the end of the world if it is. Two, I make mistakes with the names of people of different races all the time. Sometimes it’s because they look like the person, and other times I’ve only met them a few times, or it’s just a flub.
I suppose that this interpretation that you pose, Max, is why we need more cross-racial dialogue. Because the guy did look a little like SRL, and it wasn’t like George couldn’t have pointed out what features he had that made him think the guy was SRL’s doppelganger.
There is a time and place for everything. I’m sure there is a time and place for these jokes, but I for the life of me can’t think of what that’d be.
There are just too many people around- even on these boards, who hold these views. And it seems pretty likely that the person telling these jokes does not have a lot of contact with black people.
