Don’t forget that Israel is a European (and American?) creation. As someone else has mentioned, most nations in the area are relatively young and were drawn up by the Brits.
Teh stupid.
…and is regarded by many in the region as a European/American colony (or protectorate at least). Which is why the US gets blamed for Israel’s actions.
As far as I’m concerned the support is closely mirrored by the fierce opposition in the area. If the surrounding countries were treating Israel as just another country, I expect much of the fierce support would vanish.
The justification and legitimacy for the state is the same as for any other state. The people living there – and which for the most have been born and raised there - wants the state.
The British left it as Palestine, not Israel. This question bothers me as well. I have no dog in the fight but it seems to me, they are are extremely highhanded in their treatment of the Palestinians and its very hard to see how there can be a peaceful resolution. They act with impunity in the region because they have our backing and military hardware.
I just want to say that this thread is the most measured and intelligent discussion of the Israeli situation I think I’ve ever read, anywhere. Keep it up!
Apart from the morals of the situation which are admittedly complicated I don’t think there is much doubt that US support for Israeli profoundly undermines US credibility in the Middle East and around the world. By ignoring the international laws that Israeli routinely violates, the US looks hypocritical when it tries to lay down the law to other countries like Iran. The way that US politicians are bullied around by AIPAC is pathetic and widely seen as such around the world. And reflexive support for Israeli at a time when their military is killing numerous Palestinian civilians helps to inflame Muslim public opinion at a time when that public opinion is gradually becoming more powerful thanks to Al-Jazeera and the like. A big reason why the US is making so little headway in Iraq and Afghanistan is the deep suspicion in the Muslim world about its support for Israel.
I don't see Israel giving much if anything in return for the huge headaches it causes the US. IMO it's a pretty one-sided relationship driven by the Israel lobby rather the national interest of the US. I am not sure it even benefits Israel in the long run. US support gives Israel the financial and diplomatic cushion to pursue its settlement project and military adventures in Lebanon but neither of these helps the average Israeli.Actually, Burton, they left it as a horrid mess split up into several sections. Odd, really. Almost as if they wanted it to fail.
Palestine was the British Mandate which they then divided into Palestine and Transjordan, West and East of the Jordan river in 1922 due to Arab pressure. The Arabs from day one refused to cooperate in helping the British fulfill their mandate which was to set up self government because they refused to recognize the Jews. The Jews didn’t want it either at the time because it would have been overwhelmingly Arab. Its perhaps the greatest clusterfuck ever and the principal parties are seemingly irreconcilable.
Well, there are several reasons, but the main one probably has to do with the fact that it’s one of the few powers friendly to the US in the region. There are cold war aspects as well in the mix…and the fact that they ARE one of the very few democracies in the region also helps.
I guess my counter question would be…why shouldn’t we support the state of Israel exactly?
I don’t understand this at all. If you see the practical implications then you see exactly why we support Israel. There are strategic military and political reasons which you claim to see, they are a democracy, etc etc…that IS the justification for our support. Again, why should we ignore those practical reasons and NOT support them?
You should do some more historical research. For one thing, ‘we’ (nor the future Israeli’s) didn’t decide to do all this…nor was there a country there in the first place. Also, neither ‘we’ nor the Israeli’s decided to dispossess ‘half’ of the people there…many of them made that choice themselves. Nor, did ‘we’ initially support Israel…at least not as we do today. Had we don’t so ‘we’ would have actually committed military forces there (several times actually)…instead of essentially standing back with a wait and see attitude to see if Israel would be wiped out by it’s more numerous neighbors with the ensuing blood bath this would have entailed.
The history of the region is a tangled mess but you should really do a lot more reading before making statements about it. It would go a long way to explaining the ‘why’ of our support…and also show the progression of to it’s present level.
Of course. Does anyone question the ‘legitimacy’ of the US? How about France? What about South Korea? Vietnam? Russia? China? Yet all of those countries were forged in much the same way. Israel IS a legitimate country…through force of arms and victories on the battle field. Anyone claiming they aren’t has an agenda…and since Israel is a Jewish state in a region of mainly Islamic nations that reason is almost assuredly due to some form or other of antisemitism. What other reason COULD there be after all? Unless those same people want to talk about (and whine and complain about) the ‘legitimacy’ of a hell of a lot of OTHER nations throughout the world and throughout history…which, funny thing, you don’t usually hear from those complaining about Israel.
-XT
The odd thing about this question is that it is only ever asked about Israel. How is France “justified”? Or Germany? Or Kazakstan?
The … singularity of the question leads some to question the motives of those posing it. What exactly are the consequences if Israel is “illigitimate”?
Coal in their stocking and they don’t get to play in any Nation State games. It’s a rather pointless exercise (though seems endless fascinating) since the only thing that REALLY counts is if Israel and her citizens THINK they are ‘legitimate’…and if they have the force of arms to keep it that way.
It’s funny that one never see’s an OP asking ‘Is the nation of North Korea ‘legitimate’’ or ‘Why should I support Japan?’…
-XT
As far as I know, we haven’t done this question a hundred times over here, either. I posed it to learn more about the situation. I admitted as much above. That is the POINT of this thread. From my experience, the practical benefits of support do not match up with the rather fanatical, and to my mind, illogical stance that the US seems to take on the country. Israel often acts like a spoiled lapdog, biting out at it’s perceived enemies knowing that it will be picked up and protected regardless of it’s bad behaviour.
Your allusion that anyone questioning Israel has an anti-Semitic agenda is disingenuous. It is unique in that the Jews are both an ethnic group AND a specific religious group. The same cannot be said of the Koreans, etc. It is possible that the uniqueness of the state is part of its problem.
The reason people ask this question about Israel is pretty obvious, and need not be linked to anti-Israel motives. Israel was created in a somewhat unique way, was created relatively recently, has been the subject of great dispute since that time, and occupies an especially important part of geopolitics. There are some nations that share one or two of these factors, but few that meet all of them. People might equally ask about Eritrea or East Timor, perhaps, but it’s no great mystery why Israel should get more attention.
The only similar nation I can think of is Taiwan. And lo and behold, people do ask this question of Taiwan, for much the same reasons.
We can question the legitimacy of Castro’s regime without being “anti-Cuban.”
In the old days, we could question whether the US should support Pinochet without being “anti-Chilean.”
So I call bullshit on this attempt to shut down debate with accusations of anti-semitism.
Are they really the same thing as questioning the legitimacy of the state of Israel? Israel’s administration isn’t being discussed, rather the nation’s very existence.
What about questioning it’s legitimacy in that location? I wouldn’t have issues if Israel were set up in, say, Florida.
Why support Israel?
If for nothing else, for reasons of realpolitik. It’s the only truly dependable ally of the US in a critical region of the world.
It has been don’t many time. Hundred? Not sure…but I can think of several threads that run along the same lines. I’m too lazy to look em all up for you, but since anyone can search now I don’t think it will be too difficult.
From a personal perspective, you can support Israel or not as the whim or your convictions take you. The reasons America (as a nation) supports Israel will of course be different from why you, personally, should or shouldn’t.
If you wanted to learn about the history of Israel and of US’s support and relationship with that nation you would have asked the question that way. The way you DID ask the question leads me to wonder about the ‘POINT’ here. If you really want to know about that history a quick search on Wiki would be most helpful. Or a google search on that history.
And you say this admitting your own limited knowledge of the region, the history and even the actual relationship between the US and Israel. And you don’t see anything…funny…is this.
I’m sorry but my BS detector is going hay wire here. Perhaps I’m reading you wrong on this and you really don’t get it. It’s always possible that it simply needs recalibration…
…or, perhaps not. It’s things like this that are setting off the alarms…it’s the combination of ignorance and spite inherent in such a statement as above without even the motions of trying to actually dig into the real history that says to me ‘this isn’t a debate here but yet another anti-Israel thread’.
How so? It’s pretty much the default setting. Oh, I admit that there probably is someone out there who dislikes Israel for reasons other than the fact it’s a Jewish state…but it would be the exception, not the rule, if you catch my drift.
Well…yeah. I know. Thing is, you don’t hear much of people saying ‘why should I support <insert any other nation on earth that is not Israel>’…so, it’s kind of curious, no? You also generally don’t hear people make statements like <insert some nation not Israel> ‘often acts like a spoiled lapdog, biting out at it’s perceived enemies knowing that it will be picked up and protected regardless of it’s bad behaviour’…after claiming they really don’t know much about the nation inserted in there, nor it’s history.
Don’t you find that kind of curious? Why do you suppose that is…and what would be the causes of this interesting disparity?
Why? You are questioning Israel’s supposed ‘legitimacy’…why would North/South Korea, also constructed nations, not come under the same questions? For that matter, why not ask if Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc are ‘legitimate’…since they were all constructs in much the same way as Israel was a construct? The only difference of course is that all those other countries aren’t run by Jews. Unless you’d like to take a stab at some other reasons for the disparity?
What exactly is unique about Israel…aside from the fact that it’s run by Jews? There are lots of constructed states. There are nations that identify with a religion and who’s citizens are predominantly a single religion. There are nations who have displaced native peoples (LOTS of them in fact), and who have problems with those displaced native peoples (granted, not many who have folks willing to walk into a mall full of people wearing explosive vests). So…what’s unique here save that Israel is a Jewish state?
-XT
You cannot answer the question about Israel’s legitimacy until you lay down some guidelines that must be met. The modern criteria seems to me to be that legitimacy is bestowed on a new country if it is given legitimacy by other established nation states. This may seem circular, but it is essentially the same throughout history. Nations tend to exist in so much as they are percieved as the de facto rulers over the land and people. Modernity tended to formalize that, especially with the formation of the United nations.