Why Should I Support Israel?

They aren’t the same thing at all. Questioning Castro’s regime isn’t the same thing as saying ‘Is Cuba a legitimate nation?’. No one questions whether or not there should BE a Cuba…at least as far as I know. What they question is whether or not Castro should be in charge.

Well yeah…because again you are comparing apples to oranges there. Unless someone is questioning whether there should BE a nation of Chile of course. Is or was anyone questioning that?

And I trump your bullshit call with one of my own. I’d like to hear some reasons for calling the state of Israel not ‘legitimate’ that aren’t antisemitic or hypocritical.

-XT

Well, I disagree that Israel is unique in the factors you mentioned…I think that many constructed nation states have most of those factors involved, especially many of the ones constructed post WWII. North/South Korea and N/S Vietnam spring to mind as meeting your criteria there…yet you don’t see a lot of threads asking questions about legitimacy.

I will back off somewhat however from my earlier antagonist stance in this thread (it’s been a bad couple of weeks and I let my temper get the best of me)…it’s reasonable that some there are questions about Israel and our relationship with them that don’t stem from antisemitic roots. I think, however, that when one starts questioning a nation states supposed legitimacy AS a nation (in spite of the abundant proof that they are, in fact, a nation) it is not an innocent question, especially when one admits to ignorance about the history of that nation.

Well, I would have to say that Taiwan IS unique. It’s not formally acknowledged as a nation after all, it’s status being somewhat murky due to it’s own strange history. Also, China being the 800 lb panda, tends to make folks a bit wary where questions of ‘legitimacy’ come into play.

-XT

But it isn’t really all that “unique” at all, and it is of similar vintage to every other state in the ME - including all of its neighbours (who occupy, in fact, far more geopolitically important positions - think Egypt with its Suez canal, or Saudi Arabia with its Oil). Some of which have been involved in some nasty international disputes (remember the Suez crisis).

The situation of Taiwan is far different, in that the gov’t of Taiwan claims (or at least claimed at one point) to be the legitimate government of China proper - a claim not made, as far as I know, by Israel. Moreover, no-one is claiming that the Taiwanese are not “legitimate”, that they should move elsewhere, etc.

Taiwan is a lousy analogue for Israel, bearing no resemblence to it whatsoever.

If I was going to analogize, what about Jordan? Immediate neighbour of Israel - dispute with Palestinian people, leading to a bloody massacre of same (Black September) - founded in 1946 vs. 1948 for Israel (both out of British mandates). Yet no-one seems to be claiming it is not “legitimate”.

Let us face facts - the reason why Israel is different is that it is inhabited by a Jewish majority, and it is a more or less first world country. If it were not for those facts, it would be not much different in status to Jordan, no-one would give much care about them beating up on Palestinians (no-one much cares what Jordan did with theirs - far worse BTW than anything Israel has ever done), and no-one would question their “legitimacy” to exist.

xtisme, your meter does need recalibration. I’m honestly confused about what I view as a disproportionate level of support in return for our investment as a country. Israel has a fairly muddy human rights record, and has shown little reluctance to pick fights when they could have let the matter drop. Considering out level of military support, it doesn’t surprise me too much that they do this either. If they had to run purely on their own steam I doubt they would be so willing to show fight instead of trying more diplomatic means. I read the wiki article, and some of accompanying articles as well, and I still don’t logically see the reason for it’s sacred cow status here in the US. it seems to me that we are treating them with kid gloves purely because it is a Jewish state and we are afraid to be lumped in with the anti-Semites.

Fair enough…like I said, I’m going to back off of my antagonistic stance. Once I’m not posting from a phone I’ll see if I can look up some of my old links about the history of Israel and the Israel/US relationship…and I’ll try to be a bit less, um, caustic, in my future replies.

-XT

Actually, the realpolitik situation in the ME tells us that we shouldn’t support Israel. Israel is a tiny strip of land on the Mediterranean that holds little to no strategic value. There’s no oil, no other natural resources, and no important transportation link in Israel. Supporting Israel has strained our relationship with countries that do have strategic value, and made us quite hated by the populous of those countries. If we are playing realpolitik, then the obvious solution is to cut ties with Israel and back the arab countries.

History does not support your position.

Strong US support of Israel arises after the major Arab-Israeli wars (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 - though the airlift in the middle of the '73 conflict marks a beginning), not before; in terms of human rights, Israel has a better record by far than other major recipients of aid, such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The US would be hated by those countries no matter what they did.

As a matter of fact, the US has in the past attempted a strategy of pandering to Arab nationalism against Israel (and former colonial powers Britian and France) - namely, the US reaction to the Suez crisis - which gesture proved, alas, a total failure in terms of generating widespread ME support.

The US would be hated in the ME because it is, by its nature, an interfering outside power who has meddled in ME affairs since it has existed as a nation (“…to the shores of Tripoli”: http://www.marinecorps.com/node/154 ). It has participated, rightly or wrongly, in meddling in the affairs of EVERY ME country at one time or another - helping to impose a Shah on Iran here, propping up the House of Sa’ud there, sending Marines into Lebanon, Invading Iraq and Afganistan … etc. etc.

The notion that somehow support or non-support of Israel is in any way going to affect this history dramatically is short-sighted to the point of myopia. Even if the US decided today that it collectively detested all thing Israeli, they would still be hated - they would jettison their only true friend in the region to no gain.

Maybe first that it has all those characteristics at the same time. Second the fact that it’s populated by recent immigrants and their direct descendants. Sure, there are other countries populated by immigrants who displaced the local population without regard for said locals’ opinion, if only the USA, but it happened long ago. Which leads me to my third point : the fact that all of Israel’s history happened during living memory. There still are people around who fought Jewish immigration in the 30s, or lost their property in 1948. The oldest amongst us have seen the whole story developing under their eyes from beginning to end.
Finally, what about the coverage Israel gets in western medias? Some posters made comparisons with, for instance, Timor or Eritrea. How often do we hear about Timor? How many people know there has been a war in Eritrea or even that Eritrea exists? Some dozens rockets fired and 300 casualties would barely be mentioned if it happened in most parts of the world. Give Sri-Lanka as much coverage Israel gets in the media, and vice-versa, and you’ll have dozens of threads where people will discuss the unending conflict there and the legitimacy of the Tamils’ claims while the Palestinians and the Israelis will be pretty much ignored.

As previously stated, the countries immediately around Israel are of similar vintage to Israel (Jordan - 1946; Syria - 1946; Lebanon - 1943; Egypt - 1922). How is Israel (1948) so vastly different in terms of age?

In terms of displacing the original population, Israel is hardly unique - indeed, in terms of displacing Palestinians Israel is not unique (Jordan did so, and worse - see “Black September”). In fact, there remains a sizable Palestinian population inside Israel to this day.

Yes, but that is a chicken-and-egg type of question. Why the disproportionate focus on Israel?

Let me try another analog, then:

We can question the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a political unit without harboring racial or ethnic hatred for the British or the Ulster Protestants.

And I’d say that’s a pretty good analog, since both Northern Ireland and Israel could be regarded as colonies.

What country is Israel a colony of, then?

It need not be a colony of a particular country. What makes the two alike is that you have outsiders coming in – in Northern Ireland’s case, from Scotland and in Israel’s case, from all over (but especially from Europe and the US) – and displacing the local population.

The biggest difference is that in Ireland it happened over 400 years ago and is still a source of contention. Which doesn’t bode peace for Israel in the near future.

World history is a pretty unbroken cycle of outsiders coming in and displacing the local population.

Your point being…what? That we should shrug and accept it? Why the hell did we bother to defend Kuwait, then? Seems like hypocrisy to me.

Israel is different than the other countries mentioned because the Jews are a minority in a region that is dominated by Arabs. Israel controls bitterly contested land that has historical and deep religious significance to both Muslims and Jews.

For the Jews, Israel is more than a spiritual quest; it is a matter of self preservation. For the Arabs, Israel is responsible for the humiliation of the Muslim world, an occupier of stolen land, a symbol of western imperialism.

xtisme* and Malthus,

Most of the post-WWII states have broken up by civil war or the end of colonialism (Koreas, Vietnam for a period, Former Soviet States, Former Yugoslavia, Czechs, East Timor, Eritrea, etc.). These are different in kind from states created by outside powers from whole cloth. Almost all of them follow our traditional notions of self-determination–in both the legal and political sense. We might fairly put Taiwan in that category, though I think there are some other important differences. The point of the Taiwan example was merely that people do question the legitimacy of other states, so we can put aside whether it is fairly analogous to Israel in all respects.

As Malthus points out, unlike the majority of post-WWII states, most of the Middle East nations were essentially created by foreign powers. At least two things distinguish them from Israel. First, Malthus is simply incorrect about geopolitical relevance; geopolitics isn’t limited to conflict over resources (though that a poster called Malthus would be making that argument is amusing to note). It is also, of course, about spatial, social, and cultural conflict. Israel, a Jewish Democracy, placed in the heart of the Middle East, has since its founding been at the center of regional and world geopolitics. This is arguably a little circular, since questions about Israel’s legitimacy are part of what lead to the conflict that puts it there, but not entirely circular because of the above-mentioned obvious factors. You’ll note that when Iraq’s existence became a central issue because of the US war there, there was a lot of talk about the legitimacy of Iraq as a coherent nation and discussion of breaking the state up into other parts.

Second, drawing new formal borders while leaving the traditional demographics and power structures (as in Jordan, for example), is quite different from an intentional movement to transplant millions of people to a new area for the purpose of creating a new state. The creation of Jordan is just fundamentally different from the creation of Israel in the broad view; both involve foreign powers drawing lines, but there is more to the creation of a state than new borders.

Malthus argues that Israel is singled out because people are questioning the legitimacy of Israelis, as opposed to just Israel. That may be so. Part of what makes Israel unique is that a people were transplanted there. That makes it unique and raises unique questions about its legitimacy. But that doesn’t make it unique and questioned because those people are Jews. It would be the same if they were some other diaspora (Roma, say).

The bottom line is that Israel does have a unique history. It was created as a refuge for a diaspora persecuted because they did not have their own nation. That act of creation is different from giving borders and a new name to an existing ethnic-state. To be clear, while I think these differences fairly cause people to wonder about Israel’s legitimacy, I don’t think these differences suggest that Israel is illegitimate. Far from it. I would think that these some of these differences actually cut in the opposite direction, making it more legitimate than, say, Taiwan.

*–I realize your position is more moderate, but I found it useful to group the arguments.

A problem with you analysis is that Jews were not “transplanted” to Israel - they immigrated there of their own free will, starting in the 1880s, with three quarters of a million living there by 1939 (in comparison, the number of Holocaust survivors arriving in the country after the war was much smaller: 100,000 at most). The fact that the Turks and later the British allowed them to immigrate there does not mean that they *planted *them there - Zionism was purely a Jewish initiative, and was neither encouraged nor financed by any foreign power. What this means in that the establishment of Israel in 1948 was simply granting independence to the Jewish populaton that had already been there for decades.

You quibble with my use of the word transplant. That’s fine; the point wasn’t whether Jews immigrated of their own free will or were forced, obviously I didn’t think it was the latter. I only meant that prior to the Zionist movement in the 1880’s (which is what I meant by the broad view of Israel’s founding), there was not a substantial population of Jewish people in the region. That’s the relevant difference. And, of course, millions of Jews immigrated to Israel in the decades following WWII.

Civil war, ending colonialism, and national self-determination are all different from a diaspora choosing a home, slowly relocating to that place, and then being granted independence. Surely you see that difference. Your only reasonable argument is that the difference is irrelevant. But why should it be irrelevant? Quebec breaking off from Canada is a lot different than if a bunch of Americans move to Vancouver, BC and then their children declare independence from Canada.

Again, I don’t think this makes Israel illegitimate. But I do think that its legitimacy is different from the legitimacy of most self-determined nations.

Which will get millions of evangelicals and fundamentalists in the United States ticked at you. Israel plays a central role in their eschatology, and in their eyes anyone who undermines Israel is a pawn of Satan. Add to that the American Jewish community, which is very wealthy and has a great deal of political influence, and often uses its wealth and power for Israel’s benefit. Not many politicians would have the backbone to cross a political alliance like that, especially when there’s little likelihood of gaining votes or other political advantage in doing so.