:dubious:
My sect of Islam does in fact believe that the vitriol filled portions of the Koran towards those who do not follow Islam are historical, and not relevant for today’s society.
I can see the contradiction in my two posts. My first post was made from memory, without access to my copy of the Koran, or similar. Since, as I’ve already said, we do believe that said passages are historical only, hence I apologise for misleading people in my first post; the passages slipped my memory, for which I apologise profusely.
No worries, mate.
Now lets be fair . . . Jews have more rights than Muslims in Israel today, and Muslims had more rights than Jews when Israel was under Muslim control. Has there ever been a time when the ones in power were happy merely being equals?
Cite, please, if you’re going to be calling figures revered by certain people “warlords”. You might also want to look into the concept of the dhimmi, those people who were protected under the law from persecution, conversion etc.
Yep, the Jews didn’t have as many rights as the Muslims. Neither did the Christians. All these dhimmis had to pay a different tax and they were often prohibited from serving in senior positions in government. However, they weren’t incredibly hard done by - they were exempt from certain taxes levied on Muslims and didn’t have to go to war.
Not an ideal situation and not acceptable today, but as the Dark Ages and mediaeval times go, this was pretty damn enlightened, far better than the situation of Jews and some other minorities in Christian-controlled areas at the time.
If you’re suggesting that this distant history is a major source of friction between Jews and Muslims today, then you must explain why this should be, given that there’s far less animosity between Jews and Christians, even though the Jews were far more persecuted in Christian areas (including attempted genocide less than a century ago).
Please. The events of the distant past have been a perfectly good excuse for plenty of other conflicts around the world. Why would you expect this to be any different?
This isn’t unique to Mohammed or to Islam. Martin Luther*, the Christian, experienced a similar change in stance, expressing tolerance predicated on the hope that the Jews would convert, then vilifying them when they did not.(cite).
*Yes, I am aware that the Lutheran denominations have generally apologized for, disavowed, and distanced themselves from this aspect of Luther’s theology.
That doesn’t appear to be Atticus Finch’s point. He seems not to be saying if the animosity between Jews and Muslims is based on past persecution, then why hasn’t the persecution of Jews by Christians produced such animosity?
It’s not Islam, or Muslims, either. Show me someone mired in squalor and ignorance who doesn’t * blame it on someone else. It’s much easier to blame someone else than it is either to accept responsibility or to accept that the situation exists through the fault of no one in particular. I’ve encountered plenty of Christians and Jews who would like to blame someone else (pick one or more: members of the “other” religion, atheists, gays, people on welfare, people with lots of money, etc.) for their sufferings.
*I am not asserting that Muslims, as a whole, are mired in squalor and/or ignorance.
It has. Get a bunch of Jews talking on the subject some time. By virtue of numbers (or lack thereof) Jews have never been in a position where it would have been anything short of suicidal to do anything but complain about it.
At this time, there is only one Jewish-majority political state in the world. In that political state, Christians are a sufficiently tiny minority that there is no need to go out of the way to marginalize them.
Oh, it’s an “excuse”, certainly. But I contend that this historical stuff is merely window dressing, not the root cause, which is what Lochdale appeared to be saying. If you think it’s the root cause, you have to provide evidence why, when persecuted less, there’s more Muslim - Jew animosity than Christian - Jew animosity.
On your “hey, get a group of Jews talking sometime” statement, do the bunch of Jews you talked to express the same feelings about Christians as many Jews do about Muslims, or Muslims about Christians? In your chats with your Jewish mates over a cup of coffee, are you (presumably Christian background) and they threatening to bloodily hurl each other off contested territory?
Well, in general, you’re right. The difference here is with this sort of Fundie Muslim they are blaming people based upon their faith. This attitude seem to be held only by certain Muslim groups. Yes, sure, some racists would blame ‘the Jews’, etc. But it seems to be just the fundie muslims that blame all the other religions.
I disagree. Certainly, the “fundie muslims” rant and rave about other religions - it’s in their nature as religious zealots to do so. However, if they’re talking about blaming someone, about choosing someone who’s persecuting them, the line of Al Qaeda and their ilk is that their problems are caused by the Israeli Jews and the Christian “Crusaders” - ie those who “interfere”, especially militarily, in the Middle East.
They’d be ranting about Jews and Christians even if they were thousand of kilometres away, I’m sure, but those that they blame are somewhat better-defined groups. They get a lot more support by blaming this particular Jewish-Christian conspiracy with its eyes on Middle Eastern territory than generic rants.
DrDeth,
Really? Only fundie Muslims blame all the other religions? Christians have never gone out there believing everyone else is a heathen who must covert or die?
Times go bad. A group once of power becomes enfeebled. They percieve a minority “other” who they believe is not as bad off. Guess what happens? Sure that “other” has often been the Jew, but not always. Others have been the scapegoat as well. Funny thing I noticed in Spain while there on vacation this year: despite the fact that almost all the Romani were killed off during the Holocaust, tour guides persisted in explaining away beggars and beggar scams (distractions while purses are stolen, etc.) as the work of “Gypsies” from elsewhere. Still pc to prejudiced about them, I guess.
The Jew hatred preached in some sectors of the Islamic world of today is not only directed at Israel. It includes a lot of imported old European propaganda and is aimed all over the world. And preachers can easily find material in sacred texts to use to support their views. But most of history has seen those tracts downplayed rather than played up. This current Jew hatred is stoked because it serves the purposes of those in power in Arab lands. Blame the Jew and don’t look too closely a how Arab governments treat their own. Every Big Brother needs their Goldstein.
One point that occurs to me is that the question should really be “Why is their so much animosity between Jews and Muslims in the Arab world?” My personal experience here in America is that most Jews and Muslims seem to get along all right, at least as long as nobody brings up Middle East politics. For example, I come from a mostly Jewish family (although I myself am more or less non-religious), and my closest friend of the past 13 years is a Muslim.
Although maybe this is a function of the fact that I grew up in a fairly diverse area, and my experience might not be typical of America in general. (Although the areas that aren’t diverse might not have many Jews and Muslims living side by side, so perhaps it doesn’t come up.)
Please, spare us. Or at least try to get your facts straight.
A “bunch of Jews” didn’t "steal Muslim land. The creation of the state of Israel was the direct result of a vote in the United Nations General Assembly. The motion for “partition” (the partition of what was British-controlled Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states) was approved by an overwhelming majority of members.
Your definition of “third rate” seems different than mine. In Israel, Muslims can vote, serve in the Parliament, serve in the Armed Forces, protest freely, etc. By my reckoning that’s a description of something a tad better than “third rate”.
BTW, pray tell, what rate do you think the Jews are in Arab lands, or the Bahai, or the Zorastrians, etc.
Good point on that “bunch of Jews stole Muslim land” nonsense. I meant to say something to this effect when I read it, but got distracted. However, I don’t think the fact that Jews receive unequal treatment in Muslim countries in any way excuses unequal treatment of Muslims in Israel. Certainly, it could be worse for the Palestinians, but I don’t think one could say that those living in Palestinian settlements are treated as equals with the Jews. (Not that you said that they are, of course.)
Please note the words ‘in their view’
You know, I read right over that. :smack:
My appologies for assuming you were espousing that viewpoint.
To the OP: although animosity against Jews is nothing new, from any group, it has been quite acute in the Middle East. Part of this is because several leader in the area, both religious and political, have used hatred towards Jews and support of the Palestinian people to further their own nationalistic/pan-Arab/power ambitions. It has been so successful in attracting public support and maintaning control over their people, that it has become even more generally institutionalized there than in most part of the world.
Not that most of the hatred is between *Arab * Muslims and Jews, due to the extra effectiveness such a PR tactic has in the area.