Why the hell are people of Jewish faith called a "Race"

[GaWd]

Once again Daniel, actually read my posts. Since Judaism is matrilineal, and not dependent on religion, the answer to your question is YES! It is about bloodlines, not religion following. As more than a religion, as a civilization, as a people, Etc. Religion is NOT the deciding factor of whom the child is.

Following the 13 laws of Maimonides, one must only love God, never doubt him, bend to his will, have faith in all of God’s writings and the prophecy of Moses, Etc., to be considered a Jew.

So then, why would it take a mother who believes in her religion to bear a child who was not of a religion, but of a civilization/people Etc.?

I wholly disagree that one must follow rabbinical teachings and have faith in Judaism to be a Jew.

If it were so, up to 80% of the most famous Jews would never have been famous Jewish people–Albert Einstein, Louis Brandeis, Franz Kafka, George Gershwin, and Camille Pissarri…these people were all secular, not orthodox. They didn’t necessarily believe all that was told to them about following Judaism, and some others have out and outright rejected the religion–it doesn’t change who they are though.

This quote by Alan Dershowitz pretty much tells it the way I feel:

I am a deeply committed Jew. Though I am also an American, a civil libertarian, an academic, and many other things, my promary identification is as a Jew. I believe I will always be an American-- and I hope I’m not like those German Jews who believed before World War II that they would always be German. I believe I will always be a civil Libertarian, an academic, and all the other things that characterize me. But I know I will always be a Jew. Most of what I have become has derived from my Jewishness: my values, my drive, my chosen life’s work, my charity, my family choices, my approach to academic work, and much else. Yet I am essentially a secular Jew. My religious mentors tell me that my borderline agnosticism does NOT[emphasis mine] disqualify me from being a theologically acceptable–even orthodox-- Jew. Some of the greatest Jewish Rabbis experienced doubt about God…

…Some of these Jews guiltily regard themselves as “bad” Jews, “fallen” Jews, “Incomplete” Jews, or even not Jewish at all…They are a different kind of Jew in a civilization that has always been divers, open-minded and eclectic.

In his opinion, IMO, you are not disqualified from being a Jew for not believing. The same goes for conversion. especially one who converts for marriage.

But hey, what the fuck do I know…I’m just a Jewish free-thinker, exactly as described above.

-Sam

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
**

*Originally posted by IzzyR *
**Danielinthewolvesden,

The children of a Jewish mother are considered Jewish, UNLESS that mother converted to another religion prior to having them

Why do you keep saying this? It’s not true. **

It is what CKdext said in his mailbag answer (there is a link about halfway back)to the question “Can a Jew be an Atheist?”. I have also had others explain it that way. **

CKdext said nothing of the sort. Please reread the article.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Ok, after re-reading it, the example was about a mothere converting TO Judaism, not away from, but the principle is similar, altho I admit there is probably a huge difference in the way it plays out.

But how about my 2 “lifeboat” cases? Wht are the Samaritains not considered Jewish? They probably have purer “12 tribe” blood than many Jews today. Or, how about the grandkids of non-ethnic converted jews, where their parents went back to Christainity?

And I agree that a secular or non-practicing Jew, in absence of any confirming act to the contrary is still a Jew. Just as a non-practicing but baptized & confirmed Catholic, is still a Catholic.

But I beleive in some cases the term “of Jewish heritage” gives a clearer picture. I have alway heard that Issac Asimov was a “Secular Humanist/atheist, of Jewish heritage”
which certainly explains his faith/heritage better than “Jewish”.

[SpoilerVirgin]

Daniel, I’m going to try to address your points. First, you’re correct in saying that there is a significant difference between converting to Judaism and converting from Judaism, to Jews. From a Christian perspective, they may seem the same, but to Jewish people they are completely dissimilar.

A Jew cannot convert away from Judaism. She may follow whatever procedures are required to join some other religion, but she is still a Jew, just one who doesn’t practice Judaism. Whatever other religion she practices is not relevant. OTOH, it is possible, by following a complicated and time-consuming course of study and ritual, for someone not born a Jew to convert to Judaism. Once that person converts, he is considered to be no different from someone who is born a Jew – he has joined the Jewish people. This is the “loophole,” if you will, that has created so much confusion. And if as many people converted to Judaism as convert to Christianity, their presence would quickly have undermined any genetic or hereditary qualities of Judaism. But the fact is that Jews do not proselytise, and conversion to Judaism is rare, so the situation of people who are born Jewish but do not share a particular heritage is rare.

Now to your hypotheticals:

Let us say one of the parents, the mother, was black, but both her parents were Jewish (one of those ethiopian Jews). She married a Swedish guy , of 10 generations Lutheran. So, she converts to Lutheranism for the wedding, and no longer considers herself a Jew. They have Kids, who are brought up in the Lutheran Church, baptised & confirmed. Why are the kids “jewish”? They have 0 Semetic blood, and they do not practice Judaism, nor do their parents.

As Dex said in his Mailbag Answer, the heritage of the Ethiopian Jews is cloudy. But they have been accepted as part of the Jewish people by Israel and other Jews. In addition, according to the Nova story and link that I provided earlier, some African Jews do have genetic links to Judaism. If this woman was truly Jewish by common acceptance, then her children are too, no matter what religion they practice.

Or say you DO have Semetic blood, you are a Samaritan, whose linage goes back to the 12 tribes. But you family does not practice a religion that the High Priests (or the Chief Rabbis) have considered to be Jewish, for some 3000 years. But you have the same ethnic heritage exactly. Are you “Jewish”?

“Semitic” is not synonymous with “Jewish.” Arab peoples of the middle east who did not practice Judaism are still considered to be Semitic, but they are not Jewish. I would imagine that your Samaritans fall into the same category. The split occurred when Jews began identifying as a separate people and avoiding intermarriage with other Semites.

I think that the Alan Dershowitz quote posted by GaWd very eloquently explains what it means to be a Jew. I only wanted to add one thing, which is that no one on this board seems to have any problem referring to Madeleine Albright as Jewish, although she did not even learn of her Jewish heritage until she became Secretary of State, her parents having converted to Catholicism when she was a small child.

The term “of Jewish heritage” is certainly convenient in a situation in which you are trying to differentiate between those who practice the Jewish religion and those who do not. But it’s irrelevant to me. When I say “Jew” or “Jewish,” I’m referring to my people, not to their particular religious observances and beliefs, which may vary considerably.

[Klaatu]

Well, I suppose I should have put this at the top of my OP.
However, I was pissed, and didn’t.

BTW, there were some very eloquent quotes on Judaism on page 2 of the thread, and they gave me some great insight.

My final commentary after the following quotes:

<From Britannica: Race: A biological grouping within the human species, distinguished or classified within the human species.

From the government:

Definitions: The basic racial and ethnic categories for Federal statistics and program administrative
reporting are defined as follows:

1. American Indian or Alaskan Native. A person having origins in any of the original people of North America and who maintains cultural identification through tribal affiliation or community recognition.

2. Asian or Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original people of the Far East,Southeast Asia, the Indian subcontinent or the Pacific Islands. This area includes, for example, China, India, Japan, Korea, the Philippine Islands and Samoa.

3. Black. A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.

4. Hispanic. A person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race.

5. White, not of Hispanic origin. A person having origins in any of the original people of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East.>

No, I don’t agree with all the classifications either, but
we cannot throw religion in there, any way, shape or form.

OK, I am an admitted atheist, and am speaking from the heart. Believe it or not, I HATE religious discrimination.
That is because, as an atheist, I want people to respect my right not to believe; ergo if I don’t respect your right to believe, you won’t respect my right not to. (well, you might not anyway, but my point is clear)

I respect anyone’s right to believe what they want.

However, when I hear national media types refer to Judaism or ? (insert any other religion here) as a “race”, alarm bells go off.

I respect the deep feeling of heritage, but…

Either they are suggesting that particular religion is “better” than others, or worse, they are labeling that religion as a target. (ie Hitler)

Do we want to give assholes like Robertson and Falwell more ammo for their bigoted bullshit?

Sorry for the overly long post, this is my last word.

[tomndebb]

Do note that the Census Bureau has a specific purpose for identifying race and ethnicity. They are attempting to collect statistical data to allow government agencies to plan for (through projects and budgets) the need to address either discrimination against a group or calls on the government by that group for particular assistance resulting from cultural or social differences from the mainstream. Note that groups such as Aboriginal Australians are not mentioned and South American Indians are lumped under Hispanic. This demonstrates the simple fact that there are too few immigrants of either group to be discriminated against or to band together to call for aid. Note also that on the census form, each individual is asked how he or she would categorize themselves. Actual “race” or ethnicity as defined by any anthropological or biological definition is of no concern to the Census Bureau.
(Discussions of whether the bureau has the right or need to ask those questions should be taken to a separate thread. I am only pointing out the reasons behind the Census categories in Klaatu’s previous post.)

I do have a question regarding the OP: where have you ever actually seen Jews referred to as a “race”? (Particularly what “intelligent people” do you find using that term?)

I am simply curious because I do not ever remember seeing the word used in Time, U.S. News and World Report, the Wall Street Journal, The Detroit News, the Plain Dealer, or any other popular publication. In fact, my only encounters with that term have been in ancient legal documents such as the deed I mentioned in my first post. (I suppose that you can find the word at the Stormfront website, but I am not assuming that you would call them “intelligent.”)

[IzzyR]

*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
But how about my 2 “lifeboat” cases? Wht are the Samaritains not considered Jewish? They probably have purer “12 tribe” blood than many Jews today.

I’m not sure if the origin, or current status, of the Samaritans, are as clear-cut as you would indicate.

Or, how about the grandkids of non-ethnic converted jews, where their parents went back to Christainity?

They would be considered Jewish.

I would reiterate a point that I made earlier that Jewish law and popular lingo do not necessarily coincide. By way of illustration, the poster known as Satan would appear to be Jewish, under Jewish law. The one known as Kyla is not. Most people would reverse this in referring to either of these people. People can consider themselves and each other whatever they wish. Jewish law is a standard for how the Judaic laws are applied to people.